So christians, you're argument supporting god's existence is this...?

Question

"god exists because there is a god. So, he has to exist."

That's pretty much it. A circular argument that proves nothing at all. Let's put this in a way many of you will understand;
If I were to tell you that the Green fairies create and make plants grow, would you believe me?
Plants exist don't they? Therefore, the Green Fairies must exist.
Plants grow don't they? Therefore, the Green Fairies must exist.

This is the same, inane argument you yourselves use to demonstrate the existence of god. Pathetic isn't it? I mean what mental midget would fall for such a sad trick?
Would you?
Oh and don't start with the "but the green fairies don't have a book written about them" routine. I submit that god has one book written about him, and Aslan the lion of Narnia has 6. Does that make Alsan real? Of course not.
In conclusion; god is imaginary. Nothing more. There isn't a shred of credible evidence to support it's existence. No more so than the Green Fairies. I trust you'll agree...

Djm749,
that's a lot of puerile platitudes and no answer whatsoever there. But that's all you're good for isn't it? Childish "chicken soup for the soul" hallmark crap.
Try some chicken soup for your brain instead, we call it education but you probably call it "satan's works"...

commonsense..
Your name is ironic since you have none.
It is up to YOU to prove your god exists. Not the other way around, you cannot disprove a negative. Any 1st year philosophy student could tell you that.
Try this;
I tell you that I have a magic Hedgehog in my yard that levitates, eats glass and spits out diamonds. Do you believe me?
Of course not, only a moron would. You'd want proof wouldn't you?
You'd want to see a diamond, but even then that's not proof. I could have gotten that diamond anywhere. You'd want to see the little guy levitating for yourself and check for strings or wires right?
Of course, that's what any reasonable person would want.
But you christians are fed a fairy tale from birth and you swallow it hook, line and sinker.
Aren't you even allowed to think for yourselves?

Warrior poet,
You're just another idiot who knows nothing about thermodynamics. The second theory (there is no law of thermodynamics) states that entropy results from a closed system. So if that were true of the earth, then your theory would hold water. However, take a look outside and look up. See that bright shiny ball of hot we call the sun? That makes this an OPEN system, not a closed one.
But keep posting, the more you people talk, the less others are inclined to join or stay in your cult. You're the best thing to happen to atheism!

Answer 1

you could speak all the logic you want, they want to believe nonsense and the illogical. good points though

Answer 2

Hi, Have you read these argument? Most arguments about evolution and intelligent design offer only anecdotal evidence and are inherently incapable of actually proving anything. We must get better evidence in order to get to the bottom of this! Fortunately, the science of modern communications easily provides us with the tools we need to get answers. Although the details are complex, the concepts are easily grasped by anyone with a high school education. Patterns occur naturally - no help required from a 'designer'. Many patterns occur in nature without the help of a designer – snowflakes, tornados, hurricanes, sand dunes, stalactites, rivers and ocean waves. These patterns are the natural result of what scientists categorize as chaos and fractals. These things are well-understood and we experience them every day. Codes, however, do not occur without a designer. Examples of symbolic codes include music, blueprints, languages like English and Chinese, computer programs, and yes, DNA. The essential distinction is the difference between a pattern and a code. Chaos can produce patterns, but it has never been shown to produce codes or symbols. Codes and symbols create information, which is not a property of matter and energy alone. Information itself is a separate entity on par with matter and energy. Proof that DNA was designed by a mind: (1) DNA is not merely a molecule with a pattern; it is a code, a language, and an information storage mechanism. (2) All codes we know the origin of are created by a conscious mind. (3) Therefore DNA was designed by a mind, and language and information are proof of the existence of a Superintelligence. We can explore five possible conclusions: 1) Humans designed DNA 2) Aliens designed DNA 3) DNA occurred randomly and spontaneously 4) There must be some undiscovered law of physics that creates information 5) DNA was Designed by a Superintelligence, i.e. God. (1) requires time travel or infinite generations of humans. (2) could well be true but only pushes the question back in time. (3) may be a remote possibility, but it's not a scientific explanation in that it doesn't refer to a systematic, repeatable process. It's nothing more than an appeal to luck. (4) could be true but no one can form a testable hypothesis until someone observes a naturally occurring code. So the only systematic explanation that remains is (5) a theological one. To the extent that scientific reasoning can prove anything, DNA is proof of a designer

Answer 3

I think you'd find that the traditional Christian arguments for God are somewhat more sophisticated than that, and more nuanced. There is:

- The teleological argument, which starts from the same place as the anthropic principle. The universe appears to be remarkably fine tuned for complex organic life to emerge - the strength of the electromagnetic and gravitational forces, the right mix of dark and visible matter, the density fluctuations in the the early universe's original hydrogen cloud as detected in the CBR. It in fact appears to be too carefully tuned to be coincidental.

- The first cause argument, which is far stronger than the usual poorly informed "Then who created God?" counter-argument suggests it is. The universe is temporal, and current cosmology requires an initial kick off event, even it is in Hawking's "imaginary time." An extra-universal deity, however, would not be subject to temporal concepts such as creation. Aquinas has never been effectively shot down on this by the atheist camp - everyone believes there was a first cause, but since the first cause takes us so far beyond the veil of the available cosmological calculations of what the big bang had to have been like, that speculation of a theistic or hypothetical nature is all we have.

- The near universality of the moral law - golden rule, 'turn the other cheek', charity & alms giving, etc. There's no naturally-selecting reason for humans to have developed a form of idealistic altruism so purely selfless that (a) it can't be lived up to, and (b) offers few benefits, in an evolutionary sense to Dawkin's "selfish gene."

No there are certainly arguments to favour the existence of God. Some of the more intelligent atheists even have the smarts to debate them in a vigorous and interesting way. Unfortunately, I don't believe any of them are found at YA.

Answer 4

I don't want to speak for all Christians, but I would say most of us have had personal experiences which have helped solidify our beliefs. We all are born skeptical but some are more open minded than others. I have wondered many of the questions you have but I have also had answered prayers.

There is a big difference in the Bible than any other book (By the way Aslan does exist, He was Jesus in C S Lewis' interpretation of the bible.) The old testament is a factual historical account which has been proven through archeology to be correct time and time again. Also, no other book in history has been able to pinpoint one person in history thousands of years before he was born. Jesus fulfills hundreds of prohpesy some which he was able to control such as riding in to Jerusalem on a donkey and some which he couldn't, such as dying on the cross and being born in Bethlehem and his parents running to Egypt etc.

The New Testament also has 4 eyewitness accounts which were written soon after Jesus's death. If they had been false, enough people would have lived during that time who could have debunked the whole thing. In a court of law, if you have one eyewitness you have a case. If you have two eyewitnesses you have a sure case. The bible has four which not only were written by four seperate men but were written independently due to the fact that they were thousands of miles apart at the time of writing.

Do you believe there was ever such thing as the Dodo bird? Have you ever seen one? Reliable sources tell you there were Dodo birds though. So noone questions it. If there were four seperate accounts of a levitating hedgehog 500 years ago from credible sources and I could find government records saying that there was a registered hedgehog in your yard and that hedgehog died at a certain time. I would believe it.

Answer 5

I'm not Christian (Deist). I believe in God, but I agree with you that some of the arguments for God are really, well, stupid. I knew one person that argued that God existed because the Bible said so and the Bible is the Word of God (think about that one for a moment).

I believe in God because the existence of the universe suggests a Creator, One who put the universe in motion, but does not interfere. Granted, this is probably not much beyond your Green Fairies argument, but it makes sense to me. Everything can be seen as some kind of reaction to some other action, which in turn is yet another reaction to something else. Eventually, there has to be some Unmoved Mover, the Creator, whom I call "God".

Answer 6

The second law of thermal dynamics states that "Chaos can come from order but order can never come from chaos unless with the help of an outside force".

Now many scientists (not all) speculate that the universe (and everything in it) came to be through a slow process called "Evolution" where micro organism slowly adapted to their surroundings eventually becoming everything we see today.
How did this start? There is a theory and yes I do mean theory as in not proven fact (though many stand behind it as if it were) called "The big bang". In this theory two giant masses called "dark matter" collide and there is a great chaotic explosion that somehow started life as we know it.

See the problem here? The theory of evolution and the big bang theory are in direct contradiction to the proven facts of thermal dynamics. The big bang simply could not occur and create a universe. Unless..... wait a minute! What was that last part of the second law of thermal dynamics? "Without the help of an outside force."
I wonder what (or who) that outside force could be? Hmmmmmm.......

Theres some good evidence for you I would like to see you talk your way out of it.

Answer 7

Well, the argument I've heard is this:

In the beginning of existance, there had to be something that existed out of space and time to cause the first cause...But that is a very poor argument as that is more just talking there way out of the question 'Why do you think god exists.' ...something can't exist of out of space and time...if it does..than that is the perfect definition for something that is non existant??? Very poor argument.

You make a good point, but I doubt believers will do anything but bury their heads in their superstitions and anger at this question.

Answer 8

I know there is a God, He has answered prayers, saved my life (possible car accidents) more than several times. And there have been miracles of people that I know, who've had cancer and were expected to die in a short time, and are stll living 15 years latter (the cancer is in her brain now). I call that a living proof that God does exist. If you really want to known my God, I'll tell you all about Him.

Answer 9

I think you have the point. Believe in whatever you want and forget about them. If I am not interested in Leprechauns (and I am not interested!) I dont give a rats butt who does or doesnt. same with green fairies and christians. I just block them all out. the aliens, the fortune tellers, the christians, jews, astrologers....

Answer 10

This song sums it up really well.


There is a God
By Carman
93 million miles from the blistering surafce of the sun hands the planet earth. A rotating sphere perfectly suspended in the center of the universe. The ultimate creation from an infinate mind. An unbelievably intricate complex design. A supernatural testimony, an irrefutable sign that there is a God.

The size, position and angle of the earth is a scientific phenomenon to see. A few degrees closer to the sun we'd disintegrate, a few degrees furter we'd freeze. The axis of the earth is titled at a perfect 23 degree angle and it's no mistake that it is. This allows equal global distribution to the rays of the sun making it possible for the food chain to exist.

Or take for example the combination of nitrogen and oxygen in the atmosphere we breathe every day. It just happens to be the exact mix that life needs to prosper, it doesn't happen on any other planet that way.

You see, the Bible says the invisible things of God are seen through His creation, to believe this is not hair. If there's a design, there's a designer, if there's a plan, there's a planner and if there's a miracle, there is a God.

CHORUS:
There is a hope, there is a light
There is an answer to all answers
There is a flame that burns in the night
And I know, I know, I know there is a God

The Scripture says the heavens decalre the glory of God and the skies proclaim the work of His hands. If we allow our minds to drink in all the truth that surrounds the truth that just surrounds us, creation itself with help us understand.

Did you know the moon controls the tides, it's the maid that cleans the oceans. Even the waves don't crash the shores in vain. The tides drag impurities from the depths of the sea, it's nature's constrant recycling chain.

It simply boggles the mind to think that the stars will rotate with such exact precision that it's true. That the atomic clock with an error factor of less than three seconds per millenium is set by the way we move.

Though they silently orbit, the sun, the moon, the stars are like celestial evangelists above. Who circle the earth every 24 hours shouting in every languages that there is a God. Atheism is the wedge under the foundation of our faith, trying to topple our relationship with Christ. When the fool said in his heart, there is no God, he rejects the truth God painted on the canvas of the night. Atheism has never created an artistic masterpiece, never healed a fatal disease or calmed a fear. Atheism has never still given answers to our existence, peace to a troubled mind or even dried a tear.

For it's God who created heaven and earth and flung the stars in space and breathed in the handful of dirt and it became a man. It's God who sits on the circle of the earth and measures the mountains in a scale, and holds the seven seas in the palm of His hand. It's God who sent His only begotten Son to the cross of Calvary to save our souls from Hell and the grave. It's God who creates, God who delivers, God who heals and who is worthy of a thunderous ovation of praise.

CHORUS(2x)

There is a God, there is a God
And I know, I know, I know there is a God

Answer 11

If that is the understanding that you have of those who believe the Bible, then you are the best example of what I keep saying over and over again. You atheist (so called) have NOT done your homework. Too bad you wouldn't be willing to spend just half the time understanding intelligent design (God) as you have spent on evolution or whatever it is you believe.

But you won't do that, because you are just as Psalm 14:1 says you are.......

1 The fool says in his heart,
"There is no God."
They are corrupt, their deeds are vile;
there is no one who does good.