If evolution relies on random chance and natural selection, isn't it impossible?

Question

Just read some posts that need to be debated.

Evolution as in the fossil record is a fact.
Natural selection is fact, as in breeding, isolation, etc.

Random mutations that provide choices for selection are not a fact.

Random mutations cannot create 3 Billion lines of genetic code, that then are selected. That is science fiction.

Natural selection needs something to select, and that takes a lot of biology to be in place to begin with. The origins of life are unknown.

What property of matter possesses the property of consciousness? Where is consciousness in the brain? Researchers are tending toward dualism.

It takes great faith to believe in a solely materialistic and deterministic universe. That is ok. The dogmatic belief in unlikely theories, communicated as fact is not.

Answer 1

Concerning the debate going on about intelligent design and evolution: is it possible that the final answer about which of these two seemingly opposite ideas is correct could simply be yes?

With one position firmly held by the believers and the other just as fearlessly defended by the non-believers, if you happen to be in a position somewhere near the middle, it does not look all that complex. From this position, you wonder why either-or has to be the answer.

If you believe that some higher being created the universe by intelligent design, what more elegant and intelligent design could there have been than a self-regulating system that continually checks its own errors and makes its own corrections in mid-stream as an integral part of the process.

This all seems quite logical to me although it probably won’t satisfy the believers because they are afraid to see any truth other than the one they have been told to believe in. Inversely it certainly won’t satisfy the non-believers because it leaves them stuck with a god that they are so obviously terrified of.

To sum up this view from the center, it might be most easily be explained by saying perhaps the designer was intelligent. Problem is, the designer was likely so intelligent that those seeking to prove that it is intelligently designed may be incapable of ever understand it well enough to see it for the elegant self regulating design that it has always been.

The nonbelievers will be similarly handicapped due to the internal terror the have about the idea that there may be a God. Neither side being able to leave their entrenched position for fear they may have to admit they were wrong. While the rest of us stand by trying to figure out what all the fuss is about. Personally I don’t think anyone is wrong, I just feel both sides are about half right.

Love and blessings
don

Answer 2

"Facts" do not exist in science because we cannot know what we don't know about something and so there are theories. Evolution is a strong theory. This means, we know a lot about it but there is still a lot to learn. Many people who dispute evolution do it because they are not satisfied that every single detail cannot yet be explained when they don't realize that this is true for most strong theories, even ones which are correct enough to functionally apply to the design of things such as their computers and cell phones.

"Random" mutations do indeed occure. For example, there is a breed of goat called "myotonic goats", also called "fainting goats". These goats have a rare disorder which is sometimes found in humans called myotonia congenita. The mutation in the goats appeared in the 1800's and causes the goat's muscles to overcontract when used suddenly and to have delayed relaxation. As a result, when something startles the goats and they take off, they immediatly stiffen and fall over. This, to the goats, is a NON benficial mutation and they would not survive very long on their own, as they are easy prey for predators. The trait would not be passed on and the goats only exist today because the trait did prove to be benficial for humans, who would plant the goats amongst their sheep and other livestock so if a predator approached the goats would faint and be eaten while valuable sheep and other livestock would be able to get away.

In humans, this trait continues to exist because it does not prove to be a fatal hinderance to humans in most situations.

Consciousness has not yet been explained. Some suggest that it may be due to quantum fluctuations within the brain. This might sound exotic but everything in the universe has this at the quantum level. It's interesting to note that you can remove half a person's brain and still have the same person. If tyou sever the connection between the two halfs of the brain and leave them there, the two halves cannot communicate, and when looking at something with one eye, the person may be able to tell you what the object does, but not it's name, and then with the other eye they may be able to tell you the objects name but not what it does.

Answer 3

What if God planned evolution, so it DID happen, and then there would BE NO RANDOM CHANCE.

Random mutations already contain all the DNA and RNA code needed to generate a complete living organism. Only one section of the code needs to be mutated.

Get this. I work in a research laboratory and this buddy of mine watched a cell of some sort (amoeba or something... he didn't say) but it mutated into a bacteria over the course of only 4 mutations. If that's not macro-evolution I don't know what is. And don't say that's just a little bacteria, because if an amoeba can mutate into a bacteria, then imagine what a bacteria can do.

See the problem is that Christians and Scientists think that for some reason they are not allowed to agree. So yeah, there is a soul that exists as pure energy and is the essence of consciousness, while evolution did infact occur. Adam... created from dust... as in the primordial soup. Eve created from a rib... as in the first cell split into to cells, one with the genetic code that would eventually become female, the other that would remain male. The first sexed cells.

How about evolution obviously occurred? How about, God is in control? Do Christianity and Science absolutely have to disagree so severely that it becomes pure ignorance???

Answer 4

The theory of Evolution does not actually venture to say where the very first living thing came from. There are most likely many ways that it could have come about, some of which we haven't even guessed at. Other posters here are correct: even something with a "chance" that seems "very small" to us (thinking on a human time-scale) can still easily occur when given billions of years. Therefore, the basic formula of evolution: the natural variation within a species (not counting mutations) plus mutations now and again provide ample material for natural selection to work on. ANYthing that gives one living thing an advantage over his colleagues--however slight that advantage--tends to lead to that organism leaving behind more offspring than others of its kind, thus influencing the characteristics of the next generation. And generation after generation after generation for billions of years..... It all begins to add up.

The question of why there is consciousness (especially our complex, human sort) is a separate question, but a fascinating one.

Answer 5

Mutuations occur all the time. The process of replicating DNA is not always perfect. Radiation and other effects may also cause mutations. This leads to variability that then natural selection can eventually increase how common that trait occurs in a species.

Because conscioussness is an imprecise word, all consciousness discussion must begin with the word itself. Namely, I doubt any two people will have the same definition of the word.

For whatever it is worth, conscioussness is most likely an emergent phenomenom. As such it needs no location. The US has a dynamic economy but there is no place it really resides. It includes stores, cyber transactions, business faxes, and etc, but the economy is not the places rather it is the emergent phenomenom of these activities.

It takes far less faith to believe that which is rigorously tested than to believe that which is untested or untestable. This does not demean faith but rather describes the essense of it.

Answer 6

There is a 1 in 14 billion chance that somebody will win the lottery, but it happens most weeks. Explain that. As there are only 60,000,000 people in the country, and not all buy a ticket, it should be impossible.

Turn your question round. How did the invisible extraterrestrial manage it? Where did it come from? Why did it create a whole universe, just to put a small planet round a mediocre star? What are the other planets doing here?

Why leave a fossil record? Why aren't the earliest fossils modern mammals? How many attempts did it take to get it right?

Additional.

Chris P Please add to your answer so that you do not look like a complete idiot.

Answer 7

Random mutations over many millions of years, starting with very simple genetic codes. Most will be ignored. But the occasional one will allow that animal to survive better and will be passed on more. It is not selection with a goal. The environment and ecosystem allow for what mutations and adaptations are best suited for survival.

Mutations do not have to be extreme. Individual variations are mutations. A few member of a population have bigger eyes than the rest. They survive better hand have more offspring. In the successive population there will be individuals that will have bigger eyes and even better able to see prey. So you end up with a species like owls - or giant squid - that have huge eyes to hunt at night.

Answer 8

Evolution is a proven fact. (If interested, contact me via avatar for details.) Get on with your life. For details of how it works, see the reference.

As for consciousness, there is a famous problem posed by Marvin Minsky: if you are sitting in front of a keyboard and screen, communicating with someone (or something) at the other end, how can you tell whether that something is a human being as opposed to a computer running a particularly sophisticated program? If the something claims consciousness, can you say nay? Even if it should turn out to be a computer? A materialistic view of the matter is entirely adequate.

Answer 9

"Random mutations cannot create 3 Billion lines of genetic code"

I take it you've never heard of polyploidy or gene duplication then. It is very common for some organisms (especially plants) to gain an entire extra set of chromosomes in a single generation. In animals extra copies of genes are often made and simply inserted into the chromosome. A well-documented example of this is the evolution of the globin gene family in vertebrates.

Answer 10

Random mutations that provide choices for selection ARE a fact.

The real question is are you going to gives Craigs answer the 10 points or are you going to studiously ignore it and come back yet again in the future with the head-in-the sand lie "mutations cannot create new information"?

(and yet again, the origin of life has NOTHING TO DO with evolution!! And, BTW, no-one in the abiogenesis field says 3 Billion lines of genetic code suddenly came about by chance!! WTF)