Does the principle of abrogation suggest that the violent interpretation of jihad in the Quran is correct?

Question

Abrogation is the principle that the later doctrines in the Quran carry more weight than the earlier ones. The writings in the Quran became more aggressive as the military strength of the Muslims grew

http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/013262.php

sorry punx, but the additional details had errors, and people were making this the issue, instead of my question. Apologies for the inconvenience

Anax, I am asking a question, not putting forward an opinion. I do not know the answer.

I'm willing to hear both sides of this question, but so far I have only one side.

Answer 1

All of the Quran is hate-filled rubbish!

Answer 2

You of all people. And I think you were a bit intellectual than the others . you're just about the same as the big0t up there

Answer 3

Do any of you know what Jihad is? Im hoping you aren't basing it off the misguided muslims. Jihad means struggle. Struggle within yourself to do anything, like wake up on time in the morning, anything. IT DOES NOT mean holy war. dunno where that came from

Answer 4

Hmmm. deja vu...

I gave a good answer lat time. That wasn't polite of you to delete it.

Answer 5

Actually, you wrong

Answer 6

At-Takwir | 29 verses | The Overthrowing سورة التكوير
Sura #81 | Makkah
28 Unto whomsoever of you willeth to walk straight.
29 And ye will not, unless (it be) that Allah willeth, the Lord of Creation.

(that pretty much says everything.)
first of all i have never come across any verse that teaches me to kill others in an unjust manner. but i am to fight against those who want to harm my family, my people and my country. that is the trust my family and my country people have on me. that is called SELF-DEFENSE.

Al-Baqara | 286 verses | The Cow سورة البقرة
Sura #2 | Madina
190 Fight in the way of Allah against THOSE WHO FIGHT AGAINST U, BUT BEGIN NOT HOSTILITIES. Lo! Allah LOVETH NOT AGRESSORS.
191 And slay them wherever ye find them, and DRIVE THEM OUT of the places WHENCE THEY DROVE U OUT, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And FIGHT NOT WITH THEM AT the INVIOLABLE PLACE OF WORSHIP UNTIL THEY ATTACK YOU THERE, but IF THEY ATTACK YOU(there) THEN SLAY THEM. Such is the reward of disbelievers.

how many have u met out of 1.6 billion in this whole world?. that is where the answer lies. how many do u see protesting, killing and rallying? and how many u DONT SEE protesting, who DO NOT KILL, who DO NOT RALLY and who want to live their busy lives in peace?

EDIT: why is there are transition in the Qu'ran? when the revelations started Muhammed-pbuh was 40yr old, husband, father and merchant. but like Abraham-pbuh, there was always a question -- the purpose of life. with time the revelations came -- it were the revelations that brought a transformation in Muhammed -pbuh and it is not the other way around. why? Muhammed-pbuh was a complete prophet. how? all prophets -pbut who came before him, were either only religious (Enoch, Salih, Jesus-pbut,etc) or they were only warriors (Noah, Moses,David, Solomon-pbut, etc). whereas, Muhammed-pbuh was the only man who single handedly ---
a.) brought about a religious reform
b.) brought about a Woman's liberation
c.) brought about a social reform
d.) brought about a economical reform
e.) brought about a political reform

religious reform -- it was just a completion of the Faith that other prophets brought. why is Muhammed-pbuh called the "Seal Of Prophets"? as he brought the total perfectionism and Word of God for the whole of mankind. he completed the Faith of his Brothers (Messengers) who came before him.

Women's Liberation -- can u tell me how many women scholars were there before Islam? how many sermons were given by women? how many Gospels were written by women? how many women gave witness -- both in court of Judiciary and in court of Religion? how many women were slaves and were treated like a property? how many women voted? how many women had the right to hold property? how many widows and divorcees had the right to remarry? NONE to a handful. but it was Qu'ran and Allah which gave Muhammed-pbuh the courage to stand up against the Pagans andm tell them on the face -- they were wrong. read the verse below.

WOMEN AND MEN ARE EQUAL
An-Nisa | 176 verses | The Women سورة النساء
Sura #4 | Madina -- verse 1
Aal-e-Imran | 200 verses | The family of Imran سورة آل عمران
Sura #3 | Madina -- verse 195

ISLAM CONDEMNS WOMEN AS OBJECT OF LUST
but islam condemns swinging affairs and extra marital affairs.
An-Nisa | 176 verses | The Women سورة النساء
Sura #4 | Madina --- verses 20-21

ISLAM SAYS RESPECT UR WIVES and DONT FORCE any one in marraige. and it says that if ur wife lacks in one virtue then dont turn ur face to her, but love her for her other virtues.
An-Nisa | 176 verses | The Women سورة النساء
Sura #4 | Madina -- Verse 19

WOMEN ARE HELP MATES OF MEN IN ISLAM
Ar-Room | 60 verses | The Romans سورة الروم
Sura #30 | Makkah -- Verse21

ISLAM AND WOMEN'S RIGHT TO PROPERTY
An-Nisa | 176 verses | The Women سورة النساء
Sura #4 | Madina -- Verse 7+11+12+13 + 32 +176.

Political reform -- with time Muhammed-pbuh's message was spread to the his neighbors. the Jews and Christians were always at war with Makkans -- but it was after Muhammed-pbuh that they became allies. Most people say that Muhammed-pbuh waged war to get Jizya -- but many dont even know that -- Jizya was supposed to be payed by Pagans of Makkah. why should the pagans pay Jizya? because they used to take a lot of tax from the poor people, wouls trade women for money and never had any respect for a poor and needy. so inorder for them to realise -- Allah asked him to impose Jizya.

now with respect to waging wars on Jews and Christians -- people generally forget that Muhammed's first wife Hazrath Khadija-r.a(Hazrath means Scholar -- she was the FIRST WOMAN to give witness to a no:of HADITH and was the first Muslim woman to give a sermon) -- had a distant Uncle who was a Christian. although after marraige, they never met him -- she took him to her uncle when Muhammed-pbuh came down with the first revelation. Hazrath's uncle was a christian preist and so he automatically knew that the verses were DIVINE.

also some people generally say that he looted caravans -- FALSE. he attacked pagans because they tortured and held his people captives. the very same way Moses-pbuh fought and stood up against the Pharoah for his people. the same way David and Solomon -pbut stood up for their people.a good leader will always protect his people.

many people give the incident of Khyber to bash Islam -- saying that Muhammed-pbuh attacked Jews to loot them. but SUCH WEBSITE CREATORS ARE SO NAIVE -- they forget what happened after that. after the attack on Jews at Khyber -- Muhammed-pbuh did not ask them for tax, HE JUST WANTED THEM TO BE ALLIES AGAINST THE PAGANS. the PROOF -- TREATY OF HUDAIBIYAH -- WHERE JEWISH/CHRISTIAN ALLLIES WERE ALONG WITH MUHAMMED-PBUH. i think u7 know what happened after that. the Pagans and one of another Jewsih tribe man planned to kill Muhammed-pbuh -- but instead they killed muslims and jews. thus to bring the innocent people death to justice -- Muhammed-pbuh CANCELLED the Treaty of Hudaibiyah and refused any further Treaties with Pagans when Abu Sufyan came. why did they wait for so long to attack? Accd to Treaty of Hudaibiyah -- neither parties of pagan/Muhammed -pbuh were to attack each other -- the pagans refused to let the Pilgrims of Hajj to enter Makkah until a given period, but since the pagans themselves broke this Treaty -- Muhammed-pbuh lead an army of 10,000 men --Christians, Jews, Muslims -- all three of them -- and marched to Makkah -- but they entered Makkah WITHOUT A WAR. and then they performed the Pilgrimage -- Hajj together.

Social Reform/Economical reform -- after Islam and Qu'ran -- do u know how many people became one of the first Scientists?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Muslims
do u know how many of the Scientific Miracles have been proved from the Qu'ran?
http://www.islam-guide.com/
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a good leader/Prophet is he -- who will lead his people in all aspects/facets of life and as well lead them on the right path to ONE GOD. Idont know if i should but do u know why Michael Hart named Muhammed-pbuh the no:1 most influential man? it was not only him --- but many Historians have placed him no:1 or some atleast no:2 most influential and greatest man in mankind. a good prophet is he who will guide his fellowmen to the path of God. a good prophet is he who will lead his people to honor and exalt women. a good prphet is he who will bring about a social reform with his neighbors. a good prophet is he who will help increase trade and merchants to help his economy grow. a good prophet is he who will never belie the trust and love people had placed in him. a good prophet is he who will combine all of these aspects of -- simplicity, modesty, virtues, honesty, loyalty, dignity. and Muhammed-pbuh qualifies for that.
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Mahatma Gandhi, a statement published in 'Young India,'1924.
"I wanted to know the best of the life of one who holds today an undisputed sway over the hearts of millions of mankind.... I became more than ever convinced that it was not the sword that won a place for Islam in those days in the scheme of life. It was the rigid simplicity, the utter self-effacement of the Prophet(saaw), the scrupulous regard for pledges, his intense devotion to his friends and followers, his intrepidity, his fearlessness, his absolute trust in God and in his own mission. These and not the sword carried everything before them and surmounted every obstacle. When I closed the second volume (of the Prophet's biography), I was sorry there was not more for me to read of that great life."

Dr. William Draper in 'History of Intellectual Development of Europe'
"Four years after the death of Justinian, A.D. 569, was born in Mecca, in Arabia, the man who, of all men, has exercised the greatest influence upon the human race... To be the religious head of many empires, to guide the daily life of one-third of the human race, may perhaps justify the title of a Messenger of God."

W. Montgomery Watt in 'Muhammad(saaw) at Mecca,' Oxford, 1953.
"His readiness to undergo persecution for his beliefs, the high moral character of the men who believed in him and looked up to him as a leader, and the greatness of his ultimate achievement - all argue his fundamental integrity. To suppose Muhammad(saaw) an impostor raises more problems than it solves. Moreover, none of the great figures of history is so poorly appreciated in the West as Muhammad(saaw) is.. Thus, not merely must we credit Muhammad(saaw) with essential honesty and integrity of purpose, if we are to understand him at all, if we are to correct the errors we have inherited from the past, we must not forget that conclusive proof is a much stricter requirement than a show of plausibility, and in a matter such as this only to be attained with difficulty."

Jules Masserman in 'Who Were Histories Great Leaders?' in TIME Magazine, July 15, 1974
"Perhaps the greatest leader of all times was Muhammad(saaw), who combined all the three functions. To a lesser degree Moses(as) did the same."
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JIHAD-- THE STRUGGLE OR STRIFE FROM WITHIN TO BETTER ONESELF AND TO EXCEL AS A BETTER HUMAN BEING.

JIhad is of 2 types, the first one
1. accd to prophet muhammed-pbuh --'the most holiest of wars is the conquest of thyself.'
2. when one is trying to opress u and ur family, as a last resort to self-defense, when no peace talks will work.

the 3rd and new type of Jihad was introduced by the Extremists and Media, to brainwash people, so that they fill up their pockets at the expense of someone elses life. and let me tell u that there is no '72 virgin concept' in Islam. these people who kill and spread false lies, will Inshaallah be the first ones to be thrown into the Hellfire.

any person with the sense of mind will never support such atrocities. those dumbwits probably never came across this verse from the Qu'ran. just like those Islam bashers who read Quran and dont understand whats written in it. there is no difference between the two -- one blows up innocent people while the other blows up the whole religion.

AS FOR PEOPLE WHO TRY TO KILL OTHER INNOCENT PEOPLE AND GIVE IT THE NAME OF ALLAH, LIKE THOSE SUICIDE BOMBERS -- MAY BE THEY FORGOT TO READ THIS VERSE. THIS ALSO APPLIES TO THOSE WHO DO IT IN A POLITICAL MANNER TOO.
Al-Rahman | 78 verses | The Beneficient سورة الرحمن
Sura #55 | Makkah
33 O company of jinn and men, if ye have power to penetrate (all) regions of the heavens and the earth, then penetrate (them)! Ye will never penetrate them save with (Our) sanction.
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i am going to speak with respect to the most often quoted verses by Islam-bashers. this was an answer to someone -- hope it will be of help to u.

the verses as u said which intensifies in Qu'ran is because -- the pagans of Makkah started asking more tax from the Makkans who then started residing in Yathrib (now known as Medina). people usually give us out-of-context verses from Quran and say that they justify Islam is violent -- but what they fail to see lies at a eye's stretch.

the first verse usually cited to bash is --- they quote -- Fight in the way of Allah --- but they hide the rest of the sentence. this verse cited is speaking of SELF DEFENSE. also read the verse 193, which says PROTECT UR ENEMY if he is innocent or repents for his tyranny and oppression.

Al-Baqara | 286 verses | The Cow سورة البقرة
Sura #2 | Madina
190 Fight in the way of Allah against THOSE WHO FIGHT AGAINST U, BUT BEGIN NOT HOSTILITIES. Lo! Allah LOVETH NOT AGRESSORS.
191 And slay them wherever ye find them, and DRIVE THEM OUT of the places WHENCE THEY DROVE U OUT, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And FIGHT NOT WITH THEM AT the INVIOLABLE PLACE OF WORSHIP UNTIL THEY ATTACK YOU THERE, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.
192 But if they desist, then lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
193 And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrong-doers.
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the second most common one is --

Al-Maeda | 120 verses | The Table Spread سورة المائدة
Sura #5 | Madina
33 The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom;
34 Save those who repent before ye overpower them. For know that Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

ALSO OUT OF CONTEXT. read the verses above that. do u know what they speak of ? the story of MOSES-pbuh and STORY OF CAIN AND ABEL and how many people with time were killing innocent people for ages.

so people skipped the verse above this and quote the verse below. and this is a punishment for all -- be it MUSLIMS AND NON-MUSLIMS EQUALLY. being a muslim means even deeds should be like one too. and there is NO MENTION OF GENITALS HERE, i dont know from which SITE people get this.
Al-Maeda | 120 verses | The Table Spread سورة المائدة
Sura #5 | Madina
32 For that cause We decreed for the Children of Israel that whosoever killeth a human being for other than manslaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind, and whoso saveth the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind. Our messengers came unto them of old with clear proofs (of Allah's Sovereignty), but afterwards lo! many of them became prodigals in the earth.
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the 3rd verse is -- "Not to make friendship with Jews and Christians" (Koran 5:51). if u read -- there is no mention of Jews and Christians -- the verses refers to IDOL WORSHIPPERS and people who commit sins.

God is speaking of pagans here -- the idolators of Makkah during the times of Muhammed-pbuh. but let me also REMIND U of the CHRISTIAN UNCLE OF PROPHET'S FIRST WIFE & JEWISH ALLIES DURING TREATY OF HUDAIBIYAH -- as they worshipped ONE GOD not many GODS. do u know that Muhammed-pbuh even fought war because his jewish allies were killed during the Treaty of Hudaibiyah?.

u will be SHOCKED TO HEAR that once upon a time there were JEWS AND CHRISTIANS not only LIVING PEACEFULLY IN MAKKAH but also performing HAJJ. and here i am speaking of those who jews and christians who were not IDOL WORSHIPPERS.

Al-Maeda | 120 verses | The Table Spread سورة المائدة
Sura #5 | Madina
50 Is it a judgment of the time of (pagan) ignorance that they are seeking? Who is better than Allah for judgment to a people who have certainty (in their belief)?
51 O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk.
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the 4th verse people give is -- smite them above their necks and smite all their fingertips off of them." (Koran, 8:12)

the verse can be confirmed by the Bible too. read Matthew
10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword
10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law
10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

now why did i quote this? ever read the Torah? the God of Abrahamic religions will say always mention -- "I AM what I AM" ann "DO NOT HAVE OTHER GODS BEFORE ME FOR I AM A JEALOUS GOD."

Al-Anfal | 75 verses | Spoils of war, booty سورة الأنفال
Sura #8 | Madina
12 When thy Lord inspired the angels, (saying): I am with you. So make those who believe stand firm. I will throw fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Then smite the necks and smite of them each finger.
now read both of these? does it make sense? do u find something common?
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the 5th verse people usually give is -- "In order that Allah may separate the pure from the impure, put all the impure ones [all non-Muslims] one on top of another in a heap and cast them into hell. They will have been the ones to have lost." (Koran, 8:37)

but people SKIP THE VERSE ABOVE THIS. read it with the verse and see if it makes sense?
Al-Anfal | 75 verses | Spoils of war, booty سورة الأنفال
Sura #8 | Madina
36 Lo! those who disbelieve spend their wealth in order that they may debar (men) from the way of Allah. They will spend it, then it will become an anguish for them, then they will be conquered. And those who disbelieve will be gathered unto hell,
37 That Allah may separate the wicked from the good, The wicked will He place piece upon piece, and heap them all together, and consign them unto hell. Such verily are the losers.
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the next one is -- "If there are twenty amongst you, you will vanquish two hundred: if a hundred, you will vanquish a thousand of them [infidels]" (Koran 8:65)

do people know the historical event associated with this Chapter? well may be they should get to know the event -- why Muhammed-pbuh had to fight, only then will they understand. do u know that Pagans of Makkah were hell bent on killing and getting taxes from poor of Makkans and Medinians.? they traded and exchanged women like peice of product. do u know that the verse below was given after a battle? there were a handful of Medinians who fought against and emerged victorius from the thousands of Makkans, so here God says that -- think not that victory came all by urself, but if it wouldnt have been for God then u wouldnt have been succesful.

Al-Anfal | 75 verses | Spoils of war, booty سورة الأنفال
Sura #8 | Madina
65 O Prophet! Exhort the believers to fight. If there be of you twenty steadfast they shall overcome two hundred, and if there be of you a hundred (steadfast) they shall overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve, because they (the disbelievers) are a folk without intelligence.

now i would like u to read the very next verse. and see what it says.
66 Now hath Allah lightened your burden, for He knoweth that there is weakness in you. So if there be of you a steadfast hundred they shall overcome two hundred, and if there be of you a thousand (steadfast) they shall overcome two thousand by permission of Allah. ALLAH IS WITH THE STEADFAST.

and the next verse to it may SHOCK U.
67 It is NOT FOR ANY PROPHET TO HOLD CAPTIVES until he hath made slaughter in the land. Ye desire the lure of this world and Allah desireth (for you) the Hereafter, and Allah is Mighty, Wise.
68 Had it not been for an ordinance of Allah which had gone before, an awful doom had come upon you on account of what ye took.
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the next one is -- make war on them whenever we find ourselves strong enough to do so (Koran 9:3). "Fight and slay the Pagans, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem" (Koran 9:5).

this verse IS UNIVERSAL IN APPLICATION -- TO BOTH MUSLIMS AND NON-MUSLISM. it says that we should all ask for God's forgiveness, protection and mercy. it says avoid worshippingfalse Gods -- it was DIRECT MESSAGE TO IDOL WORSHIPPERS OF MAKKAH.
At-Taubah | 129 verses | Repentance سورة التوبة
Sura #9 | Madina
3 And a proclamation from Allah and His messenger to all men on the day of the Greater Pilgrimage that Allah is free from obligation to the IDOLATORS, and (so is) His messenger. So, if ye repent, it will be better for you; but if ye are averse, then know that ye cannot escape Allah. Give tidings (O Muhammad) of a painful doom to those who disbelieve,

now READ the NEXT verse. why do people give us OUT OF CONTEXT verses? these verses say that those Jewish/Christian allies (except those who perform idol worship) should be PROTECTED. and can u tell me that is there anything wrong in verse hich says keep up ur promise to those who trust u?

4 EXCEPTING those of the IDOLATORS with whom ye (Muslims) HAVE A TREATY, and who have since abated nothing of your right nor have supported anyone against you. (As for these), FULFILL THEIR TREATY TILL THEIR TERM. Lo! Allah LOVETH THOSE WHO KEEP THEIR DUTY (unto Him).
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the next most favourite of Islam --bashers is -- "fight the unbelievers" and "He will punish them by our hands, cover them with shame and help us (to victory) over them" (Koran 9:14).

read the VERSES ABOVE THE ONE U GAVE. do u know the event? TREATY OF HUDAIBIYAH -- where Pagans of Makkah killed JEWISH ALLIES OF Muhammed-pbuh just before the Pilgrimage to Makkah-- Hajj.
At-Taubah | 129 verses | Repentance سورة التوبة
Sura #9 | Madina
12 And IF THEY BREAK THEIR PLEDGES after their treaty (hath been made with you) and assail your religion, then fight the heads of disbelief - Lo! they have no binding oaths - in order that they may desist.
13 Will ye not fFIGHT THE FOLK WHO BROKE THEIR SOLEMN PLEDGES, AND PURPOSED TO DRIVE OUT THE MESSENGER AND DID ATTACK U FIRST? What! Fear ye them? Now Allah hath more right that ye should fear Him, if ye are believers

so u left this and gave me this........
14 Fight them! Allah will chastise them at your hands, and He will lay them low and give you victory over them, and He will heal the breasts of folk who are believers.
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then comes the verse on JIZYA. At-Taubah | 129 verses | Repentance سورة التوبة
Sura #9 | Madina
29 Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.

yes this verses speak of Jizya- so whatwhen u have no problem in paying taxes for electricity, gas, water, income tax, then why have a problem with Jizya. do u know where the money for Jizyah goes? to the needy, poor, orphans, poor widows, elderly homes in aged homes. so it is an indirect charity made to do by Makkans. also u should know that Pagans of Makkah would ask the poor to pay extra taxes, so this was a way to make them understand the feeling. now comeone, dont i pay tax to Govt?
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the next one too is famous and used often. ---- Unless we go forth, (for Jihad) He will punish us with a grievous penalty, and put others in our place" (9:39).

At-Taubah | 129 verses | Repentance سورة التوبة
Sura #9 | Madina
36 Lo! the number of the months with Allah is twelve months by Allah's ordinance in the day that He created the heavens and the earth. Four of them are sacred: that is the right religion. So wrong not yourselves in them. And wage war on all of the IDOLATORS AS THEY ARE WAGING THE WAR ON U. And know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him).
37 Postponement (of a sacred month) is only an excess of disbelief whereby those who disbelieve are misled; they allow it one year and forbid it (another) year, that they may make up the number of the months which Allah hath hallowed, so that they allow that which Allah hath forbidden. The evil of their deeds is made fairseeming unto them. Allah guideth not the disbelieving folk.
38 O ye who believe! What aileth you that when it is said unto you: Go forth in the way of Allah, ye are bowed down to the ground with heaviness. Take ye pleasure in the life of the world rather than in the Hereafter? The comfort of the life of the world is but little in the Hereafter.
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no unjust war was ever fought in Islam -- if that would have happened -- then muslims would have suffered the same fate as the other People of the Book. every war is to help bring communities closer -- u might have studied that Jews and Christians lived in peace during the times of Muhammed-pbuh. the wars always ended in PEACE TREATIES AND ALLIES. Allah knows best .

hope i have been of some help to u. have a nice day. may the peace and blessings of Allah(God) be with us and may He guide us in the right path. may He shower His mercy on us and protect us. peace to all.