Isn't it intellectual dishonesty for an atheist to have morals?

Question

Notice I did NOT say that atheists do not have morals--I thank God that many, perhaps even MOST of them do.

But do you see the inconsistency in the following behaviors of atheists:

If human life is no more sacred or special than rodent life or even a stand of trees, then how can atheists defend incarcerating people for killing people, when they don't impose the same punishment for people who use mousetraps or who make a living as lumberjacks?

If the most moral decision, as many atheists believe, is the one that brings about the greatest good for the greatest amount of people, then would not the highest moral decision be to eliminate all suffering on the earth, by eliminating all beings CAPABLE of sufferering?

If the earth is just one of millions or billions of places in the universe where life exists, and the life there isn't all that special, wouldn't blowing up the planet be as inconsequential as, for instance, squashing a bug?

Thank God, atheists don't have the guts.

Reviewing some of the answers, I'm seeing quite a few of you are confusing moral rectitude (or what those with morals would consider moral rectitude) with intellectual honesty.

BigBrother: You've asked me "Why would you think atheists would want to eliminate the suffering rather than eliminating the cause of the suffering?" I thought I'd made it clear that my impression of most atheists is that they want to do the "moral thing." The essence of my original question is WHY DO ATHEISTS BEHAVE THAT WAY? What scientific principle proves that it is inherently better to alleviate or eliminate suffering than to cause it?

Actually, BigBrother, my impressions are NOT factual. My impression is: MOST atheists try to do the "moral thing." I have never met any of the atheistic members of the Chinese Communist Party, who have tortured, and are currently torturing, not only Christians, but members of ANY group (e.g. Falun Gong) that would dare to suggest that their moral compass comes from some unscientific irrational source. I have never met any of Stalin's Communist henchmen who carried out the purges on religious folk. I dare say if I had, my "impressions" might be more factual. You may argue that many religious folk commit atrocities, too, and you'd have me agreeing with you. HOWEVER, there isn't a morally behaving atheist who has responded here yet who has told me, with RATIONAL arguments alone, why the behavior of the Communist atheists is any less rational than his or her own moral behavior.

...or for THAT matter, why the behavior of religious folk who commit atrocities is less rational than his own moral behavior!!!

JT--Where did I say that exposure to religion taught morals? My claim is that exposure to GOD does. My question is: what is the source of some atheist's inexplicable bent toward Love, Faithfulness, Compassion? Is it really just evolution? Are you more "evolved" than the members of the Chinese Communist party, who seem to be doing pretty well for themselves, by the way?

And oh yes, about those tribes who did not learn to live successfully with one another, and thus "died out." The head-hunters in Papua New Guinea were still going strong with their traditional ways well into the 20th century, as were the Aucas in South America...that is, until Christian missionaries came to tell them about another way to live, by the code of Christian love. Tch tch tch. Those evil culture-altering Christians!

JT--Yes I said that Christians taught SOME people not morality, but not without the help of God. Would you agree then, or wouldn't you, JT, that teaching people an alternative to headhunting and cannibalism is teaching them morality? You seem to imply that this is only MY definition of good. Furthermore, I NEVER, not once, claimed that Christians are the only ones who are sensitive to God's influence vis a vis morality, neither here nor in ANY of the questions I've answered. In fact, THIS question is based on the premise that the good behavior of some atheists (SOME of them, not murderous atheistic Communists, for example) is based on their adherence to the "sense of right and wrong" God instilled into every human being.

Lobotomies and mental illness? Talk about your strawmen! Mental illness, by definition is an inability to make rational decisions informed by that internal moral compass. It is not a conscious refusal to do so.

Answer 1

Stalin inherited a political mess that was the result of a civil war within Russia. It can be compared to the US Civil War, so your comparison between the political turmoil in Russia & atheism is illogical. Most people who died during that revolution died of starvation, they were not executed by Stalinists.

Millions more died during WWII, further increasing the numbers.

Stalin was raised in a Catholic school and his mother wanted him to be a priest. Your assertion that relgion teaches morals fails since Stalin (using your example) obviously did not learn morals (your definition) despite his years of being exposed to religious instruction.

Morals are the result of the will to survive and are not inspired. They are the result of years of evolution. Tribes that did not learn to live with each other, or follow rules that lead to survival, did not survive.

And, that's how we develop morals. Babies are not born with any moral other than the will to survive. And, they learn specific rules by observing others in their family or community.

Your underlying assumptions are faulty and your conclusions are likewise faulty. Atheists have the will to survive, same as all other animals. Religion has nothing to do with anything you asserted.

The first answer said all that (without the correction of your faulty claim about Stalinism) and is as good as any other answer.

Your assumptions & conclusions are faulty and cannot be answered directly since they are flawed to begin with.

Response:

You are offering red herrings or straw men and they are illogical arguments, same as your original argument.

Your own example demonstrates that morals (your definition) are learned since you are asserting Christians taught others morality. You claim morals are being taught while offering behavior as the example. Behavior is obviously learned, as are morals.

The frontal lobe is the source for morals and emotions. Morals are not divinely inspired, nor are they exempt from the laws of nature (will to survive), they are the natural result of the will to survive and the need to learn the rules for survival.

And, since you selectively exempt people based on your own idea of who Christians are, it is impossible to offer logical arguments. According to the way I read your question and comments, Christians are all the "good" people, and everyone else is not a Christian.

And, you are the sole judge of what constitutes "good."

Answer 2

What the hell are you talking about. I am not an Atheist, I am agnostic, but that was the most illogical set of statements that I have ever heard. Simple fact, we are all humans, although I do not like to see the suffering of any animal or life, I am still a human being. The human race is the team that I am on, I would save a human life always first. That is just a simple fact of life, it is how we have survived and worked together for over 250,000 years. Life is precious thing. I do not think that there is that much life out there in the universe, I think it is a fleeting thing in this universe that blinks in and out of existence all the time. We you see life you should cherish it. I have the guts to do what is right. If a criminal is so bad that what they have done warrants death, then why not use them for testing of stuff instead of defenseless animals who's only crime was being born an animal. I would run the world like it should be run, but I don't run the world. Criminals in my jails would be subject to slave labor. Everyone in the US would be force to serve at least 2 years in the military. There would be no summer vacation, so everyone would have to graduate at 16 so that they could get out into the work force sooner. This country is a mess and everyone seems to be weak. I could fix all of these things, just vote me in, and I will show you how an agnostic runs the show.

Answer 3

What a broad generization. Well many atheists are philosophers who have had the "guts" to study these questions intensively, and spend time in that scarry place where you truly seek answers and do not know for sure. You have chosen one philosophy which is not the belief of all. I think even God would respect the person who truly sought their own truth than someone who blindly believes what they are told with out at least really taking it to heart and really thinking about it.

I do not know if there is a God or not, really wish I could believe in one, I have spent countless hours on the question. There were times in my life where I believed deeply. I do live my life by the moral teachings of Jesus, which unfortunately many self professed Christians do not.

Your question of incarceration is obviously something you have not thought very much about. It is necessary to have consequences for actions that cause harm, and possible to have compassion for the poor souls who were once little babies as worthy as any but have come to such a place. Did you ever think of what could drive a person to do something hurtfull. Yes I know that many will say free will, they made the choices, but that is a truly compassionless and easy answer. It is also possible to be realistic, comparing mouse traps to murders is a bit much and I am a vegatarian because of my love for animals, I don't even (ussually)kill bugs, but I also live in the real world.

As for suffering - suffering is a necessary and natural as anything. Giving birth to a child is extremely painfull and extremly joyous. Having your child die (mine did) is extremly painful and taught me so much, that now that I have another child I know that what I have learned from the experience makes me a much better mother. Actually I have suffered much in my life and it has taught me the compassion and understanding I find so lacking from many who have not known it.

You are asking a question so I am hoping you are looking for insightful answers as opposed to just having your beliefs confirmed.

Answer 4

Morality has nothing to do with religious belief. (apparently, neither is it inherent in religious people).

I am a supporter of capitol punishment, and I believe that people who murder, rape, etc. should be executed. I don't understand the reference to lumberjacks and mousetraps.

The representation about the "greatest good for the greatest amount of people" is flawed. A more accurate representation might be "least injury to the least amount of people."

As far as life being so worthless to inspire total destruction, there is a difference between atheism and destructive tendencies. Even though I don't believe in gods, and I disagree with organized religions, I don't even make effort to tear down other peoples' beliefs, much less harm them or damage their property.

As usual, it is a misrepresentation of atheists, for an unknown reason. I don't know if you are a Christian, a Jew, a Muslim, a Buddhist, or other religion, but I find your slanderous attitude towards Atheists more than a little insulting.

Answer 5

I think your definition of morals and your view on atheists are both warped. Morals have nothing to do with religion. Why would you think atheists would want to eliminate the suffering rather than eliminating the cause of the suffering. Some people think atheists are actually better people because they do the right thing not because they fear God's wrath or hell but because they just think it's the right thing to do. Many atheists follow the golden rule which last time I check has never been blamed for countless deaths and countless wars. Your holier than thou question is ridiculous. Good luck anyway.

The arrogant tone of your note creates the impression that you believe your statements are factual. Now you are back tracking by characterizing them as your impression???

BTW - miracle whip is poor man's mayonnaise and it's nasty?

Answer 6

I dunno where you get your information on atheist views, but I gotta say they - your views - are pretty screwed up.

And "the greatest good for the greatest numbers" is an Enlightenment ideal put forth by a group of French thinkers known as the philosophes. I can't say that this is an atheist notion.

And if the highest moral decision is to eliminate all suffering on Earth, doesn't that sorta mean that God is not of the highest moral caliber, since he doesn't eliminate all the suffering?

I'd really encourage you to work on letting go of some of that ego. And quit being intellectually dishonest.

Answer 7

Multiple choice question. Which of the following is true:

A) This person needs to look up "moral" in the dictionary.

B) This person needs to learn that morals can exist quite nicely without a faith-based religion, and have for a lot longer than christianity has been around. (i.e. buddhism)

C) This person is trolling for a fight.

D) Both A and B.

E) A, B, and C.

Answer 8

Why do you assume that the only valid reason for having morals is because you believe someone is watching you and will reward or punish you for your behavior?

Is it not a higher standard to behave morally even though you believe no one is watching?

Isn't the person who behaves morally because they expect to be rewarded really just behaving selfishly?

Why do you assume athesists value human life less than theists? Is there not a long, well-documented history of those who proclaim themselves to believe in god showing a blatant disregard for human life?

Answer 9

Dear MiracleWhip,

Are christians now claiming a monopoly on morals? Surely, you know that christians can only have a monopoly on their perverted sense of morals - those that excludes everybody who does not believe in their myths. Why do you create strawmen and proceed to destroy them, as if it were some infallible defense of your muddled thinking?

Answer 10

I'm not sure how you connect the dots that not believing in god makes one think that human life isn't special ... but you convinced me of everything else and I want come over to your house, speak in tongues and play with snakes ... can I have an AMEN!!!