Genetics or Socialization?

Question

There are two dogs, a 2-year old male, and a 5 year old female. Both are outgoing, friendly dogs to their people, and even toward strangers when in the dog yard. They press against their kennels for strangers to pet them, bark for attention, etc. They are even outgoing when out working, tied to the truck.

However, when they are taken into crowded situations (i.e. a dog show), they become nervous, spook at noises, and crouch when strangers touch them.

The two dogs are half brother and sister, sharing the same dam (mother). Their dam is outgoing, bossy and attention-seeking, but has a littermate who was retired from the show ring due to shyness.

What's up with these two half-siblings? Is it lack of socialization, or genetics?

Thanks for the answers, guys! Per Ginbail's questions, I will add that both dogs were born at the kennel, and kept with their littermates/dam until those littermates were placed (8+ weeks).

Neither were socialized heavily, other than the occasional "ride-along" to a dog show and a couple of trips to PetsMart, until they were close to showing age (6 months).

Answer 1

YES!!!!! Finally, a good question.. Ok, let me start by saying that I happen to agree with Golden Gal, but, there is more, much more, in my opinion..
You see, genetics play a HUGE role in the temperament of a dog, but, proper socialization, at the proper age is also very important..

The dogs you mention are very social in an environment that they are used to being in, in their kennel, their home, their yard, which means that in that environment they have good nerve and do not go into avoidance, but, when taken out of that environment, they tend to get shy..
You know of this guy here in Miami who breeds some of the best bloodline Shepherds I have ever seen, but, due to his schedule does not have the time to properly socialize them. These dogs are absolute hammers, incredible drives, in their own home and environment, however, when taken out of that situation and into the real world, depending on the particular dog, they start exhibiting anxiety, shyness and sometimes sharpness, all not very good traits.

Why do some of them show more anxiety then others? I think that is where genetics come in, they have all received the same amount of socialization and exposure...
I believe that the dogs that you are talking about have a little of both, but, lean more towards the lack of socialization aspect of the equation. If it were only genetic, they would also exhibit the same issues at home as well!!

At their current age it may be a little bit too late to "cure" them of their problem, but, it would never hurt for these dogs to go places and get as much exposure as possible.
Lastly, are there any other dogs out of that line that are showing the same symptoms but raised under different circumstances? That would tell you a lot about the two dogs in question. Hope I helped!!

Answer 2

I'm going to go with a combination of both. If you have traits for shyness or aggression and the dogs are not socialized in many different situations as young as possible, then there will be problems.

Answer 3

what a fine bunch of answers you have received from so many knowlegabile people! bottom line---when it comes down to the socialization/genetics thing is, that, one can be fixed, and the other can not---all you can really do is try to gently socialize them, take them to doggie parks now while they are young, and if it's genetics there won't be a blessed thing you can do to change them...

Answer 4

Loki maybe its more situational. Apply it to a human, I dont mind small groups or individul time but you put me at the bay during National Cherry Festival with all those people and i panick. Part of it might be socialization but the thing is if it were, they wouldnt want to interact with anyone no matter how many. I think maybe its just that the dogs feel overwhelmed by so many people. Too many make them somewhat shy or insecure. I dont think its genetics as much as its learned behavior. Yes they are from the same dam but you relate to what you know. Both are raised in the same conditions. The alpha dog will impress their feelings and emotion upon the rest. Since they are the followers they mimic the behavior to show submission to the alpha.

My dog as great as she is, shes friendly, shes outgoing, she protective of hers, loves everone, except ANY delivery guy. The garbage man she absolutely hates, the UPS guy at the back door-shes really on gaurd, the mailman- cant stand him either, even the pizza guy! The only one she goes really wild with is the UPS and garbage guy. I think its because of their larger vehicles maybe? Anyone else... shes perfectly her normal self even if its a stranger.
Now in big crowds shes really close by, slightly nervous yet shows signs of happiness. Shes happy but has her gaurd up. Shes really reserved when someone reaches to pet, she even hangs her head real low until she sniffs for recogniction of something that seems normal to her. Once she finds it she perks up. If not shell become even closer to us. With her its not an everday situation shes confronted with. With her I think its nervous excitement.
I would think its a mix of situational, socialization and slight anxiety. They simply arent used to or have found a comfort zone within bigger crowds. I would try exposing them more with alot of positive reinforcement. Work particularly on the alpha first shell influence the rest. Even if you work on them one at a time.

Answer 5

They are lack of socialization and their friendliness is in genetics. Due to shyness, its just like owner like pet. lol

Answer 6

Sounds to me that it could be either or both. Since they both have the same dam, genetics are a possibility. Are the sires of these two also closely related to the dam? That might tell you a little more. For an example, was the dam bred to a gradfather, uncle, 1/2 brother, etc.? If so, my guess would be that it is probably genitic. As for going into crowded situations, such as dog shows, they might just be overwhelmed even if they are normally quite social in their everyday environment. You say that the dam's littermate was retired from showing due to shyness. Well, that could also be due to lack of training and socialization, such as how often or not the dog had been shown or participated in conformation classes. Sometimes it is just the luck of the draw with dogs also. You can have 12 pups an inbred littler they sure can all have different attributes solely on their upbringing and social environment. I'm quite curious to see every response you get, as well.

Answer 7

i say both since the dam was the same way. also sound like socialization. they probity feel secure & safe in the kennles, but get nerves at the show b/c it is not a "safe" area to them. my dog is the opisite. she dose great inside, at the vet. even with strangers around. however in the kennle, she is really jumpy and nips. i tell everyone not to try & pet her in the kennle unless she been around them alot. my breeder says he has a few dogs just like her. makes me wounder if it is also genetics some. :)

Answer 8

Probably a combination.

There are dogs who are "bulletproof" and nothing phases them.

There are dogs who are situational- things throw them but they can be trained (socialized) into accepting.

There are dogs who are situational- and you cannot get the fear trained out of them

There are dogs who are simply fearful.

Bernese are usually in the second category, sometimes the third and occassionally the fourth. Samoyeds are usually in the second category but often are in the first category.

It takes longer to "socialize" an adult than it does a puppy... I've found "working" a slightly fearful adult to be productive (put a pack on... for whatever reason it seems to steady them). I've also found taking them to shows, putting them on a grooming table and NOT SHOWING (added stress) seems to work... putting most of your energy towards who is actually showing.

Answer 9

My first response would be that they could probably use more socialization with crowds of people. Another big factor such as how they were raised as puppies could effect their behavior. When were they removed from their litter?
Finally, the other factor that I can think of would be their breed. Some breeds are naturally aloof around people, while others aren't. If that's the case here, then genetics is playing a greater role than socialization.

Answer 10

I would say genetics as well. I have a great chart for dominate and recessive traits if you would like it. I can't copy and paste it here it won't come out right.