Is Nicklas Lidstrom the greatest European-born NHL player since 1967?

Question

I read in the newspaper today (the Toledo Blade) that the Hockey News named Nicklas Lidstrom the greatest European NHL player since 1967 (as well as the tenth best player since that year).

While I strongly believe Lidstrom is one of the ten greatest defensemen ever, as well as the greatest Swedish-born hockey player of all time (with apologies to Peter Forsberg, Pelle Lindbergh, and Mats Sundin), there is no way I would forgo the talents of Jaromir Jagr, Pavel Bure, Dominik Hasek, et al among the European elite. The question here is this: is Lidstrom really the greatest European-born NHL player since 1967?

Answer 1

If you read the article, it was a split decision with Lidstrom, Salming, Jagr, and Anders Hedberg all being considered.

Over the last 40 years there have been a great many European players who have not played in the NHL who probably would have excelled, as well as a great number who came, didn't like what they saw, and left, who also probably would have excelled.

Of all the Europeans who have played in the NHL, I think there have been several who were more skilled, better leaders, and better players than Niklas Lidstrom. Players such as Peter Stastny, Borje Salming (one of the handful of players brought in to help make Steve Yzerman a better captain by Jimmy D), and Anders Hedberg (whom 5 years ago the Hockey News picked as the greatest European).

Lidstrom certainly has the hardware, but for such a 'great' defenseman, I find it hard to believe that he had to wait until Ray Bourque retired to win the award...oh yeah...that's right....a lot of the award voting is bogus writers who just vote for a name rather than the player.

To me, the best Euopean defenceman in the last 40 years was Sweden's Borje Salming (who has a higher average number of Norris votes per year than Lidstrom), the best European forward of the last 40 years was Slovakia's Peter Stastny, and the best European goaltender in the last 40 years was Czech Republic's Dominik Hasek.

Erica.............Jagr's the highest scoring European ever, but that doesn't make him the best, or even close to being the best. There are too many flaws in his game, especially 18 years after the start, that he has chosen not to correct that it makes it tough for a lot of people to consider him as the best. His defensive game could be better, his attitude towards the game could be better, etc.

The players I identified, and Lidtrsom too, are players who were dedicated to their craft at the NHL level (and believe it or not, Hasek loves the game and the NHL to death - but he's a goaltender so he's automatically a flake).

Nicklas Lidstrom is the most complete player in the NHL at this very moment. He's also a deserving Hart trophy candidate in my opinion. But, over 40 years of watching hockey, and evaluating hockey players (and the Hockey News people are editorialists, they aren't employed by NHL teams as scouts, GMs, etc for very good reason) I can think of 5-10 Europeans (mosly Swedish) whom I (and many other GMs, scouts) consider to be better players than Nicklas Lidstrom.

Answer 2

Jagr is certainly the most successful European to ever play in the NHL. He is the highest ranking non Canadian point scorer in the history of the league and will be in the top 10 list of all-time point scorers by the end of next season. That mark takes on more meaning when you consider Jagr's career is not even done yet. He turned 35 in February and still has at least 3 solid years left if he stays healthy. Sakic is the only active player with more points and assuming modest, 70 point campaigns, Jagr will pass Lemieux (and maybe Yzerman) on that list by the end of the 2009-2010 season. Should he achieve that, Jagr would be the 6th most productive player in history behind the likes of Dionne, Francis, Howe, Messier and Gretzky. I'd say that qualifies him as the greatest European player and I wouldn't bet against him reaching number 2 on that list. It's difficult to campare Jagr numbers with Nickas Lidstrom's, but it's safe to say Lidstrom is the best defenseman to come to the NHL from outside North America. Lastly, I'd give an honorable mention to Borje Salming, who paved the way for European acceptance in the NHL, playing in an era of aggression and pugilism. Salming took the cheap shots, fought the European stereotype every time he laced up his skates and rose above it all. In the end, he did a lot more than just prove he belonged. He might not be the Jackie Robinson of hockey, but he did his part.

Answer 3

"The best European-born NHL player since 1967."
I would say either Salming, Lidstrom, or Fetisov. Between them, I would say Fetisov because from what I read, he could command a game better than Lidstrom or Salming when Fetisov was in his prime with the Red Army team. There were some glimpses of this when he was with the Devils, he could make thread-needle between-forecheckers breakout passes that nobody since (maybe)Coffey or(definitely) Orr could have done.

I am NO fan of the Soviet Union! Never! But to look at the question and answer it, yes he was European-born if Russia is Europe, yes he was in the NHL, yes he played after 1967.

If you say Russia is not part of Europe: it's Salming. 3rd is probably Forsberg or Stastny. 1st is I'd say Salming: he had to play with a much worse organization, much worse team, terrible injuries, and much worse feeling against Europeans than Lidstrom has ever had in Detroit.

PuckDat's point is very good: very few men at all - in any sport - would have ever come back after that 200+ stitches cut to Salming's face that he got from what I heard was from a guy that intentionally stepped on his face to cut him with the blades, because the players didn't want Swedish guys to make it to the NHL. And the NHL did nothing then just like they do nothing now to really punish people.

Answer 4

I have to agree with Zam, that Lidstrom is the most complete European-born NHL player since 1967... that I have watched play. LITY could probably name a lot of great, and perhaps some greater, European-born players before Lidstrom's time in the league.

Lidstrom's talent, consistency, work ethics, and leadership are part of his package. I can't think of a European player more sound at their position. Plus... he's got three 3 Cups, a lot of hardware, a lot of achievements, and many more nominations. I'd say Lidstrom being complete, and complete seemingly like a perfectly tangible word to equate with "greatness", deserves to be considered one of the greatest European-born NHL player since 1967, at the very least.

As for Jaromir Jagr... I think if not for certain circumstances, decisions, and work ethics, (yeah, only those little things) and if "greatest" meant the most talented offensive player, Jaromir Jagr would be considered ahead of Lidstrom when it comes to some of the greatest European-born NHL players since 1967.

...By the way Zam, Jagr's job is to be a moody European goal-scorer/playmaker, not a hard-working, all-around solid, leader-type. :P

LITY - ^^^^Wait... did you read what I said? Lol. I was careful with my wording. I made sure to say "SOME" of the best... I never called Jagr the best, because I know that while he had/has a great amount of talent, it has only really showed in his offensive game. I know there are holes in his game. That's what I was pointing out. That his attitude, his work ethics, and such have made him a disappointment, in my eyes.

Answer 5

I would use the word complete before I would use the word greatest. Lidstrom is the most technically complete player I have had the luxury of watching skate. That said, I have only been watching hockey since the early to mid 80's, so I am only speaking from what I have seen (and from the natural bias of a lifelong Wing fan.)
He is by far the smartest player I have seen, but those decisions don't always result in tangible statistics.

In my mind, this question has some similarities to the Gretzky-Orr debate. Some people would list Wayne's stats until they were blue in the face as to why he is the greatest player of all time. But if you ask many people who had the opportunity to see him play, Bobby Orr was by far the greatest hockey player of all time, even though his numbers pale in comparison.(except for the +124 in '71. WOW)

Much of this has to do with your judging criteria. If you are a stats person who loves offense, you might lean more towards those Europeans who have put up great numbers like Jagr. But when I think of all the times I have seen him glide on the backcheck, I personally would struggle to put him in my top five. What make players great to each person differs. LITY might say Lidstrom is the 4th best defenseman ever to come out of Sweden for all I know or care, but by going by what I have seen in my lifetime and what I look for in a hockey player, he is the best(most complete) European player I have seen.

Answer 6

I absolutely agree with you Snoop. He may be the best European defenseman since 1967 (even though Borje Salming was arguably better), but not a snowball's chance in hell that he's the best European player since 1967. I would easily rank Jagr, Hasek, and Jari Kurri ahead of Lidstrom. There are also other of players that I can name, but am probably forgetting. I do not know how good Salming was, but according to LITY he was better than Lidstrom. So no, Lidstrom is not the greatest European-born NHL player since 1967.

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I personally don't understand how Hasek wasn't named the best. He is, in my opinion, without a doubt, the best European hockey player since 1967. With Jagr and Kurri coming in as close runner-ups.

btw, Bure was good, but I don't think he played enough in the NHL to really cement his status as one of the elites. But he was undoubtedly one of the best goal scorers judging just by skill and talent.

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Yeah, see, there we go, I forgot about Stastny. Now I put Hasek 1st, Stastny 2nd, and Jagr/Kurri in 3rd.

Answer 7

Yeah LITY!!!

Borje is still one of my all time favourites. After what happened to his face (he was hit in the face by a skate and cut for over 200 stitches) it was one of the greatest displays of courage and heart I have ever seen that he came back and played again. And he played well.
Salming also played in an era when there were few other Europeans playing in the league and learned to adapt his style to the league.
Lidstrom plays in a league that is less abusive to Europeans than it was in Salming's day.
He also has played quite a number of years when there has been a shortage of great defensemen with whom he could compete for the norris with.
He's good, but not as good as Orr, Harvey, Bourque etc.
My question to you is why do we need this designation? Does it not diminish the legitimacy of Europeans when you have to have a special category for them where they aren't compared to the Canadian players? Is it not in effect an insult?
It's like saying you're the smartest kid in the slow learners class.

Answer 8

I can't help but say yes. Does the avatar give it away?

*Leads all NHL defensemen in scoring with 34 points.
*2nd in NHL in plus/minus with +23.
*First European player in NHL awarded the Norris Trophy (2000-01).
*First European player in NHL awarded the Conn Smythe Trophy (2001-02).
*Fourth defenseman in NHL to win James Norris Memorial Trophy three consecutive times (2001-2003). He will do another three-peat by winning it a sixth time this year.
*Scored the game winner to clinch the gold for Sweden in the 2006 Olympics.

"Complete" is just another way of saying "best".

Answer 9

So many great ones, do not forget the first, Borge Salming, came over and put up with so much stuff trom the Canadians and refs, would be a stretch to compare him to Jackie Robinson, especially on a social level, but the physical abuse he put up with, and continued to play at a super high level would get him my vote as the best European Player ever.

Answer 10

Yes, Nick Lidstrom is by far the best europeon defensemen since 1967