Breeders: How do you?

Question

decide which pups in your litter are show quality and which ones are pet quality? I know that if they are born with disqualifying faults they are sold as pets, how can you tell which ones are going to have those qualities when they get older? For example, if a breed standard says that a dog is to be between 10 - 11 inches at the withers, how do you know that this particular pup will not be smaller or larger? Is it a guarantee that they would be able to place well?

Answer 1

This is a great question! The others have pretty much said it: evaluating puppies comes from experience and knowing your lines.
I will add tho, that just because a puppy/older dog doesn't have any DQs as described in the breed standard, doesn't make it a show quality dog either...If the dog has no serious faults, but has no real virtues, it's just mediocre.

When I went in October to look at puppies, there were three of us in the room: myself, a dear friend who is a breeder of another breed(but has an incredible "eye" for structure), and the breeder of the litter. I put each puppy on the grooming table in a stack. I looked at things like: how did their front fall? Were the feet turning in or out? Did the front come down straight? Same for the rear...was the puppy "cow hocked"?? How did the topline look? Was the topline level when the puppy moved and with relatively little motion?
I looked at front angles, rear angles.....did the puppy look "balanced"....That is, if a dog has too much rear angle, and a straight front(no angle), the movement won't be correct, as it will cause the dog to trip on it's front feet.

It wasn't easy....all of the puppies were consistent...but I chose Tori based on these criteria: She had a nice short back, but had sufficient length of loin, and was balanced front to rear in angles...Nice level topline and a nice typey head without appearing snipey. She moves very well and stops true in the front and rear! Which is something considering she is just a baby!

Breeders will guarantee their puppies against disqualifying faults as stated in the standard....if a puppy sold as a show prospect turns out to be pet quality, usually they refund the difference between show price and pet price...at least, that's how it works with the breeders I know.

And yes, I agree with the others that what you see at 8wks is generally what you will end up with as an adult...and that has proven true for me.

Answer 2

A good breeder knows the standard for their breed, they know their line and the dogs behind the sire and dam for several generations so in most cases they have a pretty good idea what the pups is going to develop into. As far as what each breeder guarantees that depends on the breeder. Normally the guarantee on a show quality dogs states that the dog won't have any disqualifications that are genetic, most also guarantee that the dog will pass normal health checks. However they are some disqualifications that the breeder has no control over and are not their responsibility. Some breeders have a DQ for dogs over a specific weight, if the owner over feeds and under exercises the dog so it is obese that really isn't any the breeder has control over. In my breed there is a DQ for dogs with tails that don't reach the hock but if the owner for some insane reason decides to dock the adult dog's tails that isn't the breeders fault....no joke I ran into a person who docked their dogs tail because someone in the military told them that the breed was supposed to have a docked tails....just because some moron in the military decided that the breed "worked better with a docked tail" doesn't mean that it is correct. The same is true of the owner who lets their dog run, it gets hit by a car and then it doesn't pass its OFAs because of the damage done by the car.

The fact that the dog doesn't have DQs also doesn't mean that it will do well in the ring since a lot depends on conditioning, training and how the dog is handled. Even the best dog in the world won't place in the ring if the handler has no idea what they are doing and the dog is out of condition.

Answer 3

Lots of experience;) First, both parents should meet the standard. Also, you only want to breed the best to the best, meaning proven dogs with excellent conformation, usually champions in the show ring. All breeding dogs should be tested to be sure there are no genetic problems before the breeding is done.
If you're looking to buy a show quality pup, do your research. Find a breed group you can talk to, and who can tell you where to look for a quality breeder. Read up on your breed. If possible, see the prospective parents in the show ring.
There are some things (like color) that can be determined very young, but much can not. That's why you want the parents to be of known show quality.
That said, no, there are no quarantees what the pup will grow up to be. Many experienced breeders can tell you about the "pet quality" puppy of theirs they saw years later that was one of the best they'd ever bred :)

Answer 4

There are several schools of thought on evaluating puppies...however, many people agree that 8 weeks is the best time. Pat Hastings has a system that a lot of people use, based on the idea that the 8 week old puppy is, proportionally, the same as it will be as an adult (i.e. it is just a smaller version of its adult self, and everything is there as it will be in the adult dog).

There is no guarantee, but after you've spent some time evaluating litters, and you know the lines the puppies come from, you have a pretty good idea. If nothing in the past several generations has ever gone over 10", using your example, it's pretty unlikely that the puppies will.

I have had "keeper" puppies before who have not turned out. When it becomes obvious that they are not developing as I expected, I have to make the decision to place them in pet homes. I have done this with 1-3 year old dogs before.

I have a male right now who was a wonderful MONSTER of a puppy, and is now about 21" at the shoulder (the size of most of my girls) -- I never expected him to be small. His sire has never produced small, and neither has his mother. His maternal grandfather did, and I suppose this may have been where this came from.

I like this dog a lot, and can't bring myself to place him. But I doubt he will ever be shown. He is a wonderful little sled dog, though!

Answer 5

The only guarantees in life are death and taxes.

That said, experience will train you to look at the sire and dam through the prism of the pedigree to get a mind's eye picture of what the pups from a particular breeding should look like.

As they are being whelped ... and I mean while still wet, the experienced eye can evaluate skeletal structure, angles and correctness - and for some, the culling starts here.

Between day-two and week eight, I keep a journal of 'impressions' I have about them. This journal includes weight, height, and various girth measurements.

At day two, coat colour and markings are noted. And again, for some, the culling continues here.

At day three, down to the vet for dew-claw removal, a vet-check and evaluation. Yeah! ... barring anything odd ... with rare acceptions, none of the pups that make it out of that office visit will be culled for conformation abnormalities.

Generally, at weeks 6, 8 and 10, I'll invite other Breeders, licensed breed judges and others whose opinions I consider to be valuable to me with regard to the breed, the breed standard and Breeder ethics to come over to visit the pups. These visits turn into critiques, arguements and debates ... but at the end of it all, we have produced at least one Champion (usually several) out of every breeding we have done.

And to what do I attribute to our ability to do this? We had good Breeder mentors. I can tell that you do not. If you did, you would not have posted this question.

So my answer to you about how to predict that any particular pup will be under the measure is: Find a good breeder mentor to work with. Breeding good quality dogs that are healthy, typey, strong, durable, correct in conformation and temperament (which, by selective breeding) are all the Breeder's responsibility. And responsible Breeder's take that responsibility seriously.

Find a responsible Breeder mentor, become a responsible Breeder. Or stay out of the game, its nothing to play with.

Tony A-

Answer 6

It is really an educated guess. You work off of your experience on how puppies that were show quality when they matured, looked as young puppies.

It is actually much easier to determine which ones AREN'T show quality than the ones that would be, in my experience. However, there are many other breeders who have much more experience than I do that can determine this easier. So, some breeders would turn to them to get their opinions.

There is never a guarantee that a puppy would place well. The dog's training, grooming, and handling all play a part that the breeder can't control.

Answer 7

My boss has every puppy come to her house after a few months and she decides at that point. All her puppies sold (except obvious faults) are show but if she doesnt think they will be stellar in the ring the owners are allowed to fix them. This past litter only the one she kept and the ONLY boy she sold as a pet (he didnt look good as a pup) have been really good looking and the owners of the boy want him neutered -_- she was like "But he'll title in three shows hes gorgeous" So shes going to collect him then let them fix him, hes a carbon copy of the up and coming Bullie stud.

Answer 8

You can't be sure, but you can make an educated guess based on experience.

Some breeders will "run on" two or three pups from a litter, letting them mature before making their decision on which one to keep.

By 8 weeks of age, some will be obvious pets (obvious to the breeder anyways, the average pet owner wouldn't know the difference). The breeder will then look at type, structure, movement, balance, attitude etc to try to narrow down the selection. You need the experience (or the help of someone with experience) with the breed AND bloodline you are working with to know which features are likely to change and how.

Answer 9

Wow I came a bit late on this one but I see you have some terrific answers already.
GinBail is right no one can be 100% sure of anything. You just make a good educated guess on your experience in your breed. sometime your right and sometimes you fall short of your expicatations!

The only other think I can possibly add is:
Happy Holiday's!

Answer 10

Katslookup, Tom, Loki and Bassetnut nailed it. I wish I could add to their answers but they covered everything.
However, I've seen many "pick of the litter" dogs fare very poorly in the show ring. I've also seen many poorly evaluated dogs do quite well. When you're showing dogs, you still have to factor things such as judges, handlers, venues, the competition, and politics - regardless of how well the dog fits the standard.