If "the wage of sin is death" then why did God set up atonement methods in the Torah??

Question

Think about it folks, The Apostle Paul(and the New Testament) states that we are lost in our sins without the blood of Jesus Christ because "the wage of sin is death". If this is so, then why did God outline methods of atoning for sin in the Torah? This is futile if in the end everyone is going to hell anyway. Prayer, sacrafice and seeking forgiveness would all be done in vain.

Billy, you did not answer the question.

BrotherM, its easy to support this view with text from the NT. Please provide scriptures from the OT to support this view.

dewcoons, yes, it is easy to refute my statement using the NT. Please use the OT to prove your theology. Where does it say that only the crusifiction of the Messiah(who is also God) will save us from our impending doom due to our sinful natures????

Answer 1

The problem is, that Christianity starts from a false premise- that you need blood to atone and that somebody else can atone on your behalf. Both of these are blatantly false- easily seen by the fact that when a deliberate transgression is made- no sacrifice needs to be brought when the person atones- a sacrifice is brought for an accidental transgression! Also- the whole point of atonement is that the INDIVIDUAL repents, comes to the point they will not repeat the same mistake- no one can do that for you.

On top of that- a lamb is never an atonement sacrifice for the nation. There are two types of atonement sacrifice for when the nation errs- one is a bull, the other is a goat. Even for individuals there is no male lamb- a King or high priest brings a male bull, a prince or other significant figure brings a cow, an ordinary person brings a female lamb. The only mandatory male lamb is the Pascal lamb- and that is a thanksgiving offering (which is why we eat it) and not a sin offering that is completely burnt up! On top of that Human sacrifice is completely outlawed in Judaism. So equating Jesus to a sin sacrifice is completely outside of jewish law and unacceptable from our POV.

But prayer, repentance and giving charity to obtain forgiveness is what we say needs to be done.

Answer 2

Always love it when people ask such easy questions...

The author of the Book of Hebrews explains that. The sacrifices given in the Tanaka were given as shadow of what Christ would accomplish. In each of the sacrifices was portrayed a different aspect of what's Christ would mean, and a different picture or sign by which he could be recognized.

God permitted them for a season to cover sin until Jesus could come and actual remove sin. The Tanaka offerings had to be repeated over and over because they were only a covering and unable to change a man's heart. But the sacrifice of Christ only had to be done once because it changed the human heart and freed it from sin.

Those who followed the Tanaka laws were saved by looking forward to Jesus, who was to come. So in the following of the laws they received the same "end" that Christians now do through faith in Christ. That is why you see them in heaven in the book of Revelation along with the Christians.

Trying read the book of Hebrews some time. It is all laid out in detail there.

Answer 3

Great question. Thanks! Todah Rabah!

As a Jew my answer to your question is that this is another place where the early Christians showed that they didn't understand Torah. To Jews, "The wages of sin is death," means that sinning will have bad results for you and others and kill part of you. Connection to the community, honor, a good name, etc. were/are very important to Jews.

Torah also doesn't say the Meshiach would be Gd on earth or that one person can atone for someone else's sins, etc.

I welcome Christians to worship as they please. I just wish they would stop saying these beliefs are based in our religion. They aren't.

Because we don't possibly have room to cite all the complicated connections between all the relevant verses in Torah (I don't claim to be a Talmudist and that's the kind of person who most knows what's going on in Torah) or to relate years of sitting through Saturday discussions of Torah in Synagogue, I am citing a great site for beginners' information about Judaism.

-Glenn O.

Answer 4

Everybody dies. Your wages for sin is death.

Then comes Judgement. Everybody is not going to hell. Everybody deserves hell if they are judged by a righteous God.

But God loves us, and desires our redemption.

Salvation is a gift of God's Grace alone. No one can enter heaven through their own works.

Works and good deeds are importand because they show faith, and love for God. When you are aware of God's love, you can't help but love Him back.

But accepting Jesus, as paying the price of your sin, your sins are covered, and you are allowed to enter heaven.

It is possible to refuse this gift! Just like God gave Adam the free will to choose whether to eat that fruit.... we have free will to choose to accept Jesus as our savior.

Attonement and tradition was necessary in the Torah, or first 5 books of the Old Testiment. Jesus hadn't been revealed to man yet. It was Isreal's faith in God, and the coming Messiah that saved them.

Quite a lot to have to sum up in a few sentences.

God Bless You.

Answer 5

Why did you stop reading???

Rom:6:23: For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Answer 6

In Exodus, God told Moses about how to build the Tabernacle, which symbolises Jesus' body. All the furnitures of the Tabernacle speak of the work and offices of Jesus Christ. For example, the mercy seat or atonement cover is Jesus Himself, who is the propitiation of our sins. You can read more about the Tabernacle and Jesus Christ here: http://www.bibletruth.net/florlane/Tabernacle/tabernac.htm

Also, Isaiah 53 prophesises the coming of Jesus as the Messiah, and His work of redemption at the cross. As it would be too lengthy for me to explain here, do feel free to read an answer I wrote in response to a question about Isaiah 53: http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=AtXT8_S93W06Tmc9I10w5RTty6IX;_ylv=3?qid=20071116204710AAnKC3C&show=7#profile-info-tTTmoohLaa

God bless you. :)

Answer 7

We wanted it. Religion looks for ways to atone for sin. But it was never going to work because it was never needed. God always forgave in Christ. We never needed religion and we still don't. Jesus said as much. But we still love it and have turned simple belief into a transaction. If you don't believe - you don't get it. But thats pure BS. You always had it and you alway will - in Christ. Now isn't that Good News. (Religion will deny it till death do they part).

Answer 8

The wages of sin is death, physical death and spiritual death. The sacrifices offered by Israel only covered the sins for a time, that is why they had to be repeated over and over again. They were merely a shadow of what was to come, the perfect sacrifice, the spotless lamb of God. It was by His death, all the sins of His people were atoned for and forgiven, for all time. This sacrifice was needed only once, and God was satisfied.

Heb 9:24 For Christ did not enter into the Holy of Holies made by hands, types of the true things, but into Heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf,
Heb 9:25 not that He should often offer Himself even as the high priest enters into the Holy of Holies year by year with blood of others;
Heb 9:26 since He must often have suffered from the foundation of the world. But now once for all, at the completion of the ages, He has been manifested for putting away of sin through the sacrifice of Himself.
Heb 9:27 And as it is reserved to men once to die, and after this, Judgment;
Heb 9:28 so Christ having been once offered "to bear the sins of many," Christ shall appear a second time without sin to those expecting Him for salvation. (Isa. 53:12)

Heb 10:3 But in these there is a remembrance of sins year by year,
Heb 10:4 for it is not possible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
Heb 10:5 For this reason, coming into the world, He says, "Sacrifice and offering You did not desire, but You prepared a body for Me.
Heb 10:6 You did not delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices concerning sins."

Heb 10:11 And indeed every priest stands day by day ministering, and often offering the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.
Heb 10:12 But He, offering but one sacrifice for sins, "sat down" in perpetuity "at the right hand" of God,

Heb 10:14 For by one offering He has perfected in perpetuity the ones being sanctified.

Answer 9

I can see the point you are making

Why did Jesus push over the money changer tables?

What about the Golden Calf?
What about Sodom and Gomorrah?
God wanted to find one sinless person to spare the city
I don't know if these stories are presented the same in the Torah, as they are in the Bible

Answer 10

If a person were able to keep the laws of God then he would not need a saviour. but the law was given to prove to man that try as he might he would return back to sin.