fish drama--help needed quickly?

Question

I thought i was a good pet parent but beginning to question myself.
A week ago we bought 6 beautiful neon tetras from a dodgy tank (with dead fish--i know)
3 died on Monday but the others seemed fine. The water showed v low readings of am. and nitrite, only nitrate was a tiny bit high. To make sure the remaining three weren't lonely my housemate went to buy 6 more (and two male guppies) today, but he came back with 6 cardinal tetras and three of them have only one eye. Worst, while he was gone, two of the other tetras died and the third has white spots on head and tail. (NTD? Ick?)
argh. So a) do i have to euthanise the last NT? b) are the one eyed cardinal tetras actually ok? Is it a disease or a GM problem? c) when is it safe to release them in the tank? I heard that all fish can catch NTD.
BTW the male guppies are already fighting for space in the bag and the shop is closed and we don't have a quarantine tank.
(when i was a kid keeping fish really seemed easy)

Sorry a few more details. Upon closer inspection the disease is probably ick. That's not good. The tanks is 120litres. It's been over 6 weeks so why should we suspect its not cycled if all the readings are ok.

Sorry for the readings amonia was 0, nitrite was the lowest our kit allows (less than .3) and nitrate was 12.5.
thanks for your support!

by the way the new fish are from a different store. The new store seems to get good reviews online and the tanks look much cleaner and no dead fish. I'm not sure the eyeless fish are their fault--we didn't notice until we got them.

By the way i took the advice of PeeTee and figured they wouldn't survive in the bags and had to free them. Meanwhile one of the male guppies is tail biting like crazy. I think he may be a so-called 'bully guppy'. This is getting a bit ridiculous. I guess tail biting is kind of normal guppy behaviour but he's chasing the tetras too. Ironically they seem much less worried then the other guppy.

hmm...so this morning when we woke up the bully guppy apparantly stressed the other male to death. Even when his colleague was well dead he was still biting his tail. I probably need to give this mean guppy back to the store huh?
Also I think my best option is to turn the temp up to 30 to try to stop the ich cycle. I'm afriad that in a tank that may not be fully cycled if I add too many chemicals that will cause more problems.
Also one of the tetras is being bullied...does this mean he probably has a disease already?
Thanks so much for your help...

Answer 1

It sounds as if your tank never got the chance to cycle. ANY ammonia can kill fish. The fist thing you need to do is a 20% water change. You will need to continue doing frequent 20% water changes until your tank cycles. This could take over 1 month. Your choice of fish is important during this time. You can only stock up to 25% of your tanks fish capacity, and the fish should be hardy. Neons are not a good cycling fish. Guppies would be fine. Once your tank is completely cycled, you can start to SLOWLY add more fish.
Here's a good article for everything you need to know about cycling:
http://www.firsttankguide.net/cycle.php
Another important aspect to successful fish-keeping is to make sure the fish you purchase are healthy. This can best assured by buying only from reputable aquarium stores. Best to stay away from PetCo/PetSmart, Wall Mart, and any other big box stores. Aquarium/fish stores are also good for trouble shooting, and often offer services such as free water testing.
You don't say how big your tank is, but it's important to remember that even small fish often have rather large tank requirements. Good sites for fish profiles and care:
http://www.aquariumlife.net/fishsearch.asp
and
http://www.peteducation.com/index.cfm?cls=16
If you take the time to do things right, you will have a rewarding hobby and healthy, happy fish
BTW, many medications will kill the bacteria that you need to cycle your tank. Please consult with a good fish sore before adding any meds to your tank!
Edit:
You stated that your ammonia and nitrite readings were "very low". "Very low ammonia can kill fish. It needs to be none. If you add big bunches of fish, you will stress the fish, which can cause ick, and cause an ammonia spike. Your size tank is a good size for the species you have mentioned. However, I would suggest starting with more hardy species, like guppies, blackskirt tetras, platys, most barbs etc. Then when your tank has stabilized, you can start adding more fragile fish.

Answer 2

No, you're right, not neon tetra disease. That disease, the neons will lose their color, I believe especially on the red line, and they'll get a white/pinkish spot on their back-but it'll be in the muscle tissue not above it. You're also right, it can be spread to other fish, not just neons. It's just it was first discovered in neons, that's why it has that name. Zebra danios are another that are fairly susceptible to it.
Does sound like ich though. Ich looks like salt grains on the fish, usually starts on the fins/tail and can spread to the body. I wouldn't euthanize the fish, I would return all the fish first thing in the A.M. Then do a fishless cycle on the tank.

The plus side, it's already started the cycle, and if it's been about 6 weeks, probably not much further to go with it. Get yourself some shrimp-cocktail or salad frozen shrimp is fine. Put the shrimp in a pair of nylons/pantyhose with the leg cut off, and knot it closed and toss it in the tank. This will produce ammonia, allowing the tank to finish cycling. Don't do any water changes, just top off the water as it evaporates. Monitor the water parameters, and when the ammonia and nitrites are at 0 ppm, and there's nitrates present, it's cycled. Remove the shrimp, do a water change to get your nitrates under 20 ppm(that's always where you want to try to keep those), then add your fish soon after, because the beneficial bacteria needs a constant ammonia source to survive.

Now, for the ich, once the fish are removed, I would go ahead and raise the temp in the tank to 85°F/29°C. The higher temp will speed up the ich life cycle, and with no fish in the tank for it to latch onto, it will die off fairly quickly. By the time your tank finishes cycling, the ich should be gone.

Your tank is a decent sized, equivalent of about 31 US gallons. When you do stock fish back into the tank, do it slowly. Only add maybe 3-4 fish a week. This will allow the beneficial bacteria to "catch up" with the added waste/bioload. Neon tetras are not the heartiest of fish, cardinals are a better choice, but their not the greatest either. I would definitely stay away from that fish shop lol. I'm guessing the one eyed cardinals was probably because they had them in a tank with another aggressive fish that ate their eye. It's also possible they got a bad batch of them in, either way, not a good store you have there. I know the store is closed, I would go ahead and add the fish to the tank when you can, but I would still return all of them tomorrow. Good luck!

EDIT: To answer your last question, since it's been running 6 weeks, why isn't it cycled....it usually takes on average about 8-12 weeks for a tank to cycle, some longer some less. You said you had small amount of ammonia and nitrites present. In a normal cycled tank, ammonia and nitrites will be 0 ppm and nitrates present. Any amount of ammonia and nitrites is toxic to fish, therefore it should always be at 0 ppm. And again, you want to keep your nitrates under 20 ppm, best way to do that is with weekly water changes of about 25% and a good gravel vacuum weekly as well-once the tank is cycled.

Answer 3

If ammonia and nitrite are present (at all) in your tank, then you're not fully cycled. You want ammonia and nitrite to be at 0 ppm and nitrates to be below 20 ppm.

I remember your earlier question about the sick neons and I'm so sorry you're having so much trouble getting your tank to a point where you can finally sit back and enjoy it.

Did these new fish come from the same store as the others? If so, you should stop going there. You might even want to call and talk to the manager or owner of said store and let them know why they've lost a customer. They really should give you a full refund for all this trouble. You need to find a reputable source for your fish and supplies.

Answer 4

Change your fish supplier. Seriously! They shouldn't be selling fish in a tank with dead fish in it!

NEVER buy fish from the same tank as dead specimens. You don't know what the fish died of, and it's possible that the disease could be passed on to the living fish. Inform the shop of said dead or ailing fish. If they're a decent shop, they'll thank you and remove the corpse or quarantine ailing fish.

That said, I wouldn't say you're a bad fishkeeper. Start treatment with Waterlife Protozin and hope for the best. Don't be surprised if the fish is still showing symptoms after the 3rd day of treatment - just continue treatment unless the fish is starting to show pain (bending the body a lot more than usual). The 3 day treatment is a bit of enthusastic optimism on Waterlife's part. (Although it does work for very lightly affected fish, but if it's a heavy infestation, it will probably take longer).

Oh - and get a quarantine tank for the cardinals. Please :)

EDIT

DO NOT turn the heater up without starting/continuing treatment. Turning the temperature of the tank up will speed the lifecycle of the parasite up - not stop it. Before you know it, the fish will be covered and they'll start to die too. You must treat ICH! You don't have a choice. If it means the filter bacteria die off - so be it - abandon the cycle, dose the tank with Ammo-lock and concentrate on getting those parasites dead and out of that water.

In the presence of females, male guppies will fight to the death for the right to mate. Also, AS SOON AS you see a corpse, you MUST remove it from the tank. Fish will scavenge on dead tankmates, but, even more importantly, the corpse will course an ammonia spike.

Answer 5

Since the Nitrates are a little elevated your cycle is probably OK. (Nitrates are the by-product of functioning bacteria.) On the other hand something lowered the resistance of your fish to let the Ich flareup. This could be a temperature difference or some other source of shock. In any case you shouldn't try to "rescue" delicate fish from crappy pet stores,just let the poor things die and don't patronize stores that allow this stuff to go on.
The one-eyed Cardinals will probably die too. Don't know what you're calling NTD,but Ich is always present in aquaria,just waiting for an opening. Since the store is closed and the fish will probably die anyway,put them all in the tank and hope for the best,then before purchasing any more fish do a little learning. Get some good introductory books and read them.

Answer 6

I'm not an expert with fish, but my sister had a fish tank with some of those fish in it too with the same symptoms. The white specks on your fish is ick. I would suggest buying some medicine at any pet store before adding anymore fish in there. I hope this helps you.

Answer 7

This shop does not sound like the best place to get your fish. To be honest they should be treated to a visit from RSPCA/SPCA the fish if they survive could have white spot you can overnight the other fish in a wide bowl with large air surface area. tonic salt for osmosis is always good for the fish also. Good Luck to you and your fish.

Answer 8

Tell ur housemate to stop. That is where I would start.