Do born Jews & Orthodox converts consider Reform Jews not Jews at all? Do they not have the soul in your view?

Question

I have read on this board and others that Reform converts are either not Jewish at all or they are. On Mt Sinai they accepted the law that God gave them, not Rabbi court, no dip in the Mikveh, so why can't a non-Jew do that and be accepted rather than the whole process?

Answer 1

Everyone has a soul, Jewish or not, so of course Reform Jews have souls.

As to whether Orthodox Jews recognise Reform Jews as Jewish- we see them in two camps:
1) Those who are Jewish since they have unbroken matrilineal descent from an Orthodox Jew (or Judaism before Reform started in the early 1800's)
2) Reform converts, those whose descent is traced through a patrilineal line, and those who are the children of a marriage where the father is the Jew and the mother is a Reform convert.

Group 1 we recognise as Jewish, group 2 we do not as we do not recognise patrilineal descent or Reform conversions as being valid.

Edit: A lot of Reform posters take exception with the Orthodox view, unsurprisingly. But it is not just a matter of interpretational differences it is much deeper than that. the Torah gives and explicit statement as to who is a Jew (descendant f a woman, not a man) and the rules for conversion are found enumerated by Ruth in her statement, and elaborated on in the mishnah and Gemorrah in masechta Yevamos. the fact that Reform chooses to ignore what is explicitly stated in the Torah in the case of ancestry, and what is explicitly stated in the Mishnah, is what makes their Judaism suspect. Patrilineal descent is NOT ok, there is zero justification for it in the Torah- aside from the explicit statement in the Torah regarding the fact that if a man marries a non-jew his children are lost to Judaism, there is also an explicit example- the descendants of Sarah, who became Jewish with Abraham. are Jewish. the descendants of Abraham with a non-Jewish woman i.e. Ishmael and later the children from Keturah, are not Jewish.

As for a convert- they are required to accept the whole halachah "your people will be my people, your ways will be my ways". There is no accepting of just some halachah or just selected bits you like- it has to be all or nothing- and since Refoem does not accept all Halachah, they cannot do a Kosher conversion and thus their converts, and their descendants, are not Jewish. The non-acceptance of Reform Jews that cannot show matrilineal descent from an Orthodox Jew goes to important matters of Halachah not mere interpretational differences.

Answer 2

Ahh, the old "Is Reform Judaism Jewish" debate.

Reform Judaism came out of a movement that was relaxing many of the strict rules of Judaism. It also came at a time when the name Orthodox was emerging and chassidic Judaism was forming. In reality, they were all there before, it's just that they were given names. We can see aspects of all 3 in the Tanach, and even in the Torah if you look carefully.

The following is my opinion. From what I understand, early reform Judaism was a way for those Jews who were drifting away to stay connected to Judaism. There were many pogams at the time where the christians killed off vast numbers of the teachers. In 1643 there was a Pogam that killed off a whole bunch of the adults and orphaned many children. When these children grew up without teachers, they maintained a simple form of Judasm.

Now, we can't deny that the first generation of Reform Jews were Jews as they had Jewish parents. And since they were Jews, their children were Jews, and so on. The real question comes with converts. Personally, I accept Reform converts.

Reform Judaism today is very interesting. A group that seemingly fostered assimilation is bringing people back. They are becoming more observant because they want to be.

Teachers are becoming available and they are doing great Torah studies and teaching children. As the people are learning what's required they are becoming more observant. They are doing more to teach and keep kosher and Shabbat.

What I'm seeing is Reform Judaism is becoming the vehicle to bring Jewish souls back that have been forced far away because of forced conversions among their ancestors.

When you look carefully at the opinions of learned Jews of all denominations, you find the differences are really minor. The discussions get the less learned people looking into what is really Jewish and they are actually "contrived" for that purpose. (Source: Likutey Mohoran letter 5.)

Now, why can't you just jump in a Mikvah and be Jewish like they did in Moses time? Well, it wasn't so simple. Only 1 in 5 from the children of Israel made the cut to leave Egypt. Then there was this little thing of crossing the Sea of Reeds which has a deep spiritual meaning. So it was a whole process.

To convert, we don't accept a religion. We become it. When a person has reached a certain stage of transformation commensurate with their abilities they go to the Miqvah. This is a concept that isn't understood well by many going through the process. A proselyte isn't somehow "less of a Jew." In fact, it says many places a proselyte is loved more by G-d.

The question "so why can't a non-Jew do that...rather than the whole process" is similar to "Why can't I be a pilot without training?"

For anyone approaching Judaism from any direction, I'd suggest you enjoy the process. Don't worry about how long it takes. The actual miqvah is anti-climatical.

This is for Kismet: Where are the Jewish laws of conversion written?

There is a path to conversion in minutes. I won't reveal it here, but it's right in the Talmud and it doesn't require a single iota of knowledge about Judaism.

(For those looking on: This is NOT a challenge to Kismet. It's asked for the sake of learning only. It may be there are laws I'm not aware of. But by looking into them, we can both learn. It's a Jewish method of learning.)

Answer 3

Orthodox Jews are still waiting for the messiah. There are certain requirements that must be met before the messiah will arrive, but if they include Reform Jews as part of the Jewish community, those requirements cannot be met.

Orthodox Jews are a very small minority. Conservative and Reform Jews make up the vast majority of Jews. We consider ourselves Jews regardless of Orthodox opinion. The same is true in Christianity. Catholics and Mormons consider themselves Christian regardless of the opinion of "real" Christians.
.

Answer 4

That would be a big NO! Messianic Jews are Christians. They believe in Jesus and Christian teachings. They may have been Jews at some point in time (many were never affiliated with "real" Judaism") but have left that faith and embraced Christianity. Why they want to call themselves "Messianic Jews" is beyond me. I can call myself a Pagan but it does not make me one. I am Jewish. Really Jewish. I do not believe in the trinity or that Jesus was the messiah. I believe in Judaism. No one that I have ever met that was really Jewish believed Messianic Jews are anything other than Chrisitans calling themselves something different. I have nothing against Christians who call themselves Chrstians but if you are a Christian, why not call yourself that? To me they just play with words and try to evangelize Jews into Christianity. They are not considered Jews by most other Jews.

Answer 5

I'm a Reform Jew and proud of it. At our synagogue, the men and women can sit together which means families can enjoy the services more, for one thing.

To an Orthodox Jew who claims that I as Reform am somehow 'less' of a Jew I say this: get over yourself. You are not a perfect human being, you are not a perfect Jew, and you have no right to judge me nor any other Jew. It is bad enough when non Jews bash Judaism and being Jewish - for Jews to bash or dismiss other Jews is appalling.

Answer 6

some of the more observant "shades" of Judaism do not consider reform jews as being jewish, yes.

firstly you have to understand the distinction of the sects of Judaism... its just about all a matter of observance and strictness.

Judaism does not generally have the "we're right and everyone else is wrong" thing. but there is generally thought that there has to be a distinction of at very least beliving certain things and at least making some concept of an effort of being part of things.

from my undrestandin a comparison would be how that in christians, a universalist church... some of the people that might be there, might be entirely not christian! if your distinction of the group is on having some degree of observance and agreement on at least SOMETHING, then a group that does not hold what YOUR group sees as the minimum to "count" ... do you follow?

Daniel, this isn't exactly really accurate, as the distinctions between the sects of Judaism aren't *generally* inteperetive disagreements, as *ALL* people who would be categorized as religiously Jewish *ABSOLUTELY* agree on at least some concept of an undivided singular God. there is NO section of Judaism thats actually jewish, for example, that belives in a trinity. THERE IS NO sect of Judaism that belives in Jesus. (theres a christian denomination which deceptively claims to be jewish, but they are not)

as a bottom line summary.... generally speaking its ALL a question of where you put the bar of what the minimum agreement/observance is. and considering how little Judaism *actually* has a concensus about, its not hard to "count" if you have any interest in counting to the person that makes that standard.

if your only concerned with what God thinks, why would the label matter? if someone isn't born and raised jewish, yet wants to be jewish enough to call right of return, ... shouldn't that bar be higher? and for those who WANT to count in such a way, and justly should be counted in such a way, would it really be that hard to fulfill? no.

for example, personally I am Jewish by blood and belief. some of my religious/spiritual views are ... off the beaten path. but they *are* compatible with the core jewish concepts and they are in agreement with those things. I am not very actively observant. I don't keep kosher, I don't really keep the sabbath as I should, ect. but my belief is strictly and very specifically in God.
how much I have to "prove" my jewishness would be generally a lower bar than someone who converted. I don't have massively contradictory beliefs that i might revert to under the wrong kind of pressure.
where a person whos in the process of converting, but isn't interested in putting more effort into their observance than I do, wouldn't be seen as being all that interested.

think of it like... for me my "default" is belief thats Jewish in nature. a person who is in the process of converting, their "default" has not been established in jewish-ness.

SOME reform synogogues (strangely, I've never figured out the reasoning for this) do accept people into their group that are entirely not jewish. and this is a huge problem for the more strictly observant jewish groups.
probably rambling and repeating myself but hopefully its helpful.

Answer 7

As an orthodox Jew, I can tell you that:
1) WE ALL HAVE SOULS.
2) A Jew is someone who is born to a Jewish mother or who converts (to Judaism) in accordance with Jewish law.
3) Being that reform "Judaism" has nothing to do with Jewish law, those who 'convert reform' are NOT Jewish.
4) We believe that ALL moral people merit heaven, regardless of their religious beliefs, affiliations, or lack thereof.
Considering all of the above, I urge you to examine the seven laws given to Noah, and to join one of the Noahide communities around the world.
For more info:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noahide
http://www.noahidenations.com/

Answer 8

I'll give you my rational even though I don't know the answer to your question. Since reform is a denomination of Judaism, it should be accpeted by Orthodoxy and Conservative Jews. Orthodoxy is different thought because I'm betting that they believe they are the only denomination that believes they have the right interpretation of the Tanakh and Talmud. For example, Orthodox Christianity is recongized as a denomination of Christianity, but they believe that only they have the right doctrine of faith.

Answer 9

I am a Reform Jew.

However, I must disagree with a fellow Reform Jew on why we're still Jewish, ( and one that I often agree with on many things! hey, we're Jews..we debate!)
.
It isn't based on popular "opinion" but on the fact that we still hold to the covenant..albeit in a way that is different from the traditional (Orthodox) Rabbinic interpretation of it. Reform Judaism recognizes that in every generation with new knowledge and new technologies and with growing awareness...how we apply Torah to give meaning to our lives and keep the covenant alive in passing on traditions..does change. Many Orthodox will tell you that the Judaism they practice in their every day life is the same as that from the days of Tanakh, ignoring that customs arose in many different lands and that they, too have changed certain observances over the centuries..the Talmud itself is a record of the debates and discussions of how to honor the Torah under circumstances of the Rabbi's times and with their world views. I believe Conservative and Reform Judaism have kept Judaism vibrant while Orthodox has been our foundation. I see that we need all these Jewish voices and I notice time and time again that despite our differences of observance..we each here, no matter which branch, even just by looking on words written on a computer screen..more often than not, appear to nearly instantly recognize and connect to others who display a Jewish or Torah perspective in contrast to one that is not. We are far more alike than different..and IMHO our differences are not as deep or wide as those between the major divides of denominations in some other religions.
It is a comforting feeling.

Gershon gave a pretty good picture of why Reform developed and I know that within my lifetime it has taken on many more traditional elements. It is a valid path to keep Torah alive and Tikkun Olam as a path of life.

My father was raised Orthodox, my mother raised Reform as was her mother, whose parents were Orthodox. I was raised Reform and I've had opportunity to attend shul in other towns visiting my Orthodox relatives and see Orthodox lifestyles. There are Jews of all 3 branches in my family. Our beliefs are not so different on the majority of things, but our level of particular ritual observances are.

Over the years in Yahoo in chat and on 360..I've written much on Judaism, Jewish history, on issues about Jewish contemporary life and assaults on Judaism. In many instances I have had Orthodox Jews write to me and compliment me, often beginning with thinking that I am Orthodox, depending on what it was I had written. Then, when they discover I am Reform, I have had a very few ( thank Goodness only a very few) react to me as if I were a Christian evangelist and all of a sudden my knowledge was worthless to them.

All of a sudden, what they once praised they condemn. That has been a very bizarre experience each time it has happened.

I really don't care if they see me as a Jew or not because as long as they recognize that I am also defending their right to their more ritually observant path of Torah and do not seek to demonize me because I do not choose that particular path..I'm not going to argue with their opinion of whether or not I'm a Jew or apostate. IF they honor Torah then they'll also recognize that my path is also good.

On the other hand, I have also had a few Orthodox Jews write to me and tell me that their understanding and opinion changed for the better after reading here in Yahoo from Reform Jews such as myself. While they still didn't agree with some significant aspects of Reform observance, they were able to recognize that we're not all Godless secularists and Jews in name only.

However..because we as Reform Jews do believe we also follow Torah and we do not ascribe to beliefs that contradict it..we are still members of the covenant. I also recognize Karaites ( http://www.karaite-korner.org/) as Jews and have met a couple who are very committed to Torah and live a life that certainly fits as a light unto the nations IMHO.


Am Yisrael Chai!

P.S. some Reform Jews also wait for a messiah rather than just a messianic age..I don't care which it is..I just want hate and war to cease. :)


Shalom

EDIT: I must note that one Orthodox Jew here who often QUOTES a Reform Rabbi to answer questions, states here that Reform isn't concerned with Jewish law. http://www.whatjewsbelieve.org/ Is accurate about Jewish belief and law..and Rabbi Federow is employed as a Rabbi of a Conservative synagogue, but he was ordained Reform.

See what I mean about Reform Jews can be agreed as knowing our Judaism with but yet they don't always agree we're of the Jewish religion?