if i understand correctly...?

Question

according to romans 2:12, those who are not exposed to the word of jesus will not be punished for not believing in him, i.e. a bushman living in the rainforest, who has no means of modern communication with the rest of the world does not have to worry about going to hell. is this really what angers christians about atheists? is it that we've found the loophole in their system. if we are willing to sacrifice ourselves and don't expose our children to christianity, and make it a crime for others to teach it in public schools, there's very little chance they will ever learn any more about christianity than the aforementioned bushman. jesus will be just another name to them. thus, won't they be judged only by their actions and not if they accept jesus? i'm willing to risk going hell if it means my children never have to worry about it. who else is with me?

that's not a reverse pascal's wager. it's using christian scripture to prove you don't have to believe in jesus to get into heaven. not weak at all. where did i ever mention, "what if you're wrong?"

hasse, associating catholic extremism & case of mental damage with atheism... now i've heard everything!!!

fireball, really? from where would my children hear about jesus? and not just hear about him, but learn what he taught? tell me, where?

i could mention the name jesus to the bushman, that doesn't make him anymore at fault for not believing in jesus, does it?

jinenglish, either way, atheism still wins... so what's your point. if he doesn't exist we don't go to heaven or hell. if he does exist, my children don't go to hell. and i can shape this wager to where it covers nonbelief in all religions, whereas pascal's wager only accounts for if there is or isn't a christian god? it completely neglects the idea that there might be a god that isn't jesus and doesn't like christians.

see the light, you wouldn't be willing to make sacrifices for your childen's benefit? you make sacrifices everyday i'm sure, when you could be spending more time with them. what if this life is all we have and there is no afterlife, then have you wasted your time because you want something better for your children in this life? i don't think so.

exposure to the name is one thing... exposure to christianity is whole other ball of wax. that is what we're talking about. isn't it? sure they'll see bumper stickers that say stuff about jesus, just as they'll see bumper stickers about the flying spagetti monster. how are they to decide which is real? is there any way of learning about jesus if not in public schools, if they don't go to church, and if i convince them that all religions are based on silly superstitions? what need would they have to seek out religion, let alone christianity of all the hundreds of religions that exist?

beta, how do you conflate not teaching superstitions with not teaching science? am i to teach my children every single superstition known to man? it's impossible and i'd rather use my breath for other more important things.

i notice i didn't get too many disputing the fact that this is indeed a loophole. i got one that claimed i'm misreading the verse, but i think he's forgetting that there was rather narrow world view at the time, and they didn't account for people who lived in other parts of the world who hadn't heard of christianity because they didn't realize people in other parts of the world existed.

Answer 1

I think that's why the Christians work so hard at sending missionaries everywhere, including American ghettos. That way no one will slip through on that loophole.

Remember that there are plenty of people who consider one of the pleasures of heaven will be to look down and see the torture in hell. Sort of like the Roman Colosseum, I suppose.

Answer 2

I don't believe you have to believe in Jesus to get into heaven, I believe that there is no hell and that no one will be tortured eternally. I don't believe that Jesus was sinless there are scriptures in the bible that show Jesus sinning. Jesus was not crucified to save us from our sins Jesus was crucified for political reasons. I believe that you do your children the biggest favor by teaching them how to find the truth for themselves, and what is truth in my life maybe different then what is truth in your life, because in the end truth is all relative, and every person that has ever said that I Have the truth and there is no other has been proven wrong. Anyway, if God did create hell and sends people there than God has been defeated by evil plain and simple, and is therefore not all powerful.

Answer 3

The real concept to understand correctly is that outside of Christianity, Romans 2:12 and any other facet of this religion is meaningless. There is a whole world out there that functions just fine without Christianity and all of what it says must be done. The world does not need to listen to the message of Christianity.

Answer 4

Romans 2:12 "All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law."
I don't understand where your supposed loophole in this verse is. It DOESN'T say that those who don't have the law go to heaven, it says that they will PERISH for their sins.
And those who have the law of God, will be held to a higher standard of judgment because they DID KNOW what God wanted them to do, but didn't do it.

Answer 5

No, you don't understand correctly. Romans 2:12 is speaking of Jews and Gentiles. Those who die not under the law (Mosaic law) will be judged and condemned based on their sins according to what they did know. God has placed an overarching moral code in each of us, the law in our hearts. So, those nations not under the Mosaic law will be judged by the law they did know.

Rom 2:14 For when nations not having Law do by nature the things of the Law, they not having Law are a law to themselves,
Rom 2:15 who show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience witnessing with them, and the thoughts between one another accusing or even excusing,

Of course, salvation is not determined by us, but by God. He calls out those who are His to salvation. Time and place mean nothing to God, He can just as easily save one from the jungle as one from the industrial world. It is not a problem with God.

Answer 6

a reverse pascal's wager?



weak.


you don't believe in God or Heaven or Hell. But on the chance that God and Heaven and Hell exist, you aren't going to expose your children to Jesus Christ so they gain entrance into Heaven on a technicality.

Yeah, that's close enough to pascal's wager to count.

Answer 7

But if the gospel is preached to an area and there are churches there and there are ways to reach to God then there is no excuse and you would be condemning your children by denying them the choice for themselves. You have rejected the gospel so your doom is waiting, but why deny your children the right to see it for themselves and be saved?
Even this bushman will ponder and know that there is something greater then he that all the things around him exist and thus, he reaches out to God though he may not know his name. This is the bushman who realizes the first commandment by his conscience. 1st commandment:
Exodus 20:2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

This is the true meaning of Romans chapter 2.

Answer 8

Do you really think you can raise kids in Western Culture and have them never come across the name of Jesus or the existence of Christianity? That must be some bubble you're building.

Answer 9

the entire concept that toddler's flow to heaven is a splash shaky. some sectors have self belief it mutually as others do no longer. There particularly isn't lots in the Bible that truly facilitates us to understand what happens while a individual who would not have the cognitive capacity to understand the gospel dies. the only text cloth that i understand human beings component to is the single in 2 Samuel the place David stops weeping while his baby dies. while he stops weeping he says, "i'm able to flow to him, yet he won't be able to return to me." maximum individuals take this as a tacit explanation that he would be with the youngster in heaven. in spite of the shown fact that, on the comparable time, it would desire to basically be a connection with Hades (the after-existence). we are uncertain and that i in my view sense it is a splash bit presumptuous to make the declare. in spite of the shown fact that, i might say the project approximately abortion is greater severe from a Christian worldview. Abortion is intentionally killing a individual, which violates between the ten Commandments. mutually as some human beings will justify abortion by calling it a precise to guard one's physique, one ought to ask if the member's of our society (babies in the womb) who have not got any status or say do no longer even have the marvelous to existence. i might argue that all of us have the form of declare to existence, which includes those in the womb. for this reason, i do no longer basically see abortion as usurping God's authority basically, I see it as violating between the consumer-friendly commandments.

Answer 10

So you're going to intentionally keep your kids ignorant? I thought Atheists were all about full information and being open-minded?