Does hypothesizing God's existence really solve the problem of the complexity of life?

Question

It seems to me that it just pushes the problem back a step. The argument I'm talking about is specifically the argument that says:

1. Life forms are complex.
2. Complex things require a creator that is more complex than the creation.
3. God is the only thing more complex than life.
4. Therefore, life forms were created by God.
4a. God did not require a creator.

My issue with it is that it posits God as a complex entity that doesn't require a creator. Why make this exception?

Can anybody explain to me why the argument isn't as bad as I think it is? Thanks.

Also, if I've given a strawman version of the argument, I'd be happy for someone to correct me.

Answer 1

When He reveals Himself to you, you don't need theories anymore.

Answer 2

Step 2 is a misnomer. We know complex things can come about by the process of evolution. This is not a violation of the second law of thermodynamics because the universe is an open system. The second law only applies to closed systems.

This is a throwback to the old "you find a watch on the beach and you know it must have had a creator" argument. The argument goes, the watch is complex and has parts which serve a purpose; one can see the design, thus it must have a watch maker. Therefore, mankind, who are much more complex, must have a man maker.

The argument is very flawed. For starters, we know the watch has a designer because we can look at the identification marks on the back and determine what company created it. We can research the company and discover the person who invented and designed the watch. We can call these people and directly talk to them, ask them questions, learn about new designs. We can even educate ourselves and learn how to make our own watches.

We can't, however, make a universe. We can't look at it and find out "who" made it. We can't talk directly to the "maker" and discover how it was "made." We can't learn how to make it ourselves.

Furthermore, if you continue down the beach and discover a nuclear power plant, do we conclude there's a nuclear power plant maker? No... not a single person could make an entire nuclear power plant. It requires thousands of people. We know this because they build them all the time. We can observe this happening, we can talk to the people involved, we can read about it in the newspaper.

And you're right, saying "God did it" begs the question, "Well then, just what 'did' God?" Someone might reply, "God is outside of time and space." My reply would be: "Then why on Earth do you think you could possible have a very universal understanding of something that, by very definition, is beyond our universe?"

Misty040 said "Knowing there is a God, whose form, complexity, omnipotence, knowledge etc. is far beyond my comprehension means also that my belief in him is not based on my ability to logically assess his existence.

I believe in God because my soul yearns for him."

Misty, you can't comprehend god's power, therefore you reject that as reason to believe god's existence. However, you apparently comprehend the workings of a soul, since that is your criteria for believing. Please, then, explain to us how exactly the soul works. Where does it reside? What is it made of? How much does it weigh? How can we measure it? How can we detect it? How is it attached to our bodies? What does it look like?

My point is, you have no more way of comprehending the soul than you do of comprehending god. They are equally uncomprehendable as far as current understanding goes. So what is your basis for believing in god, again?

Answer 3

You are right in talking about steps as this argument is lacking something
-1,The building simple blocks form.
0, Life forms start off simple.
1. Life forms become complex.
2. Complex things require simple building blocks (lego, if your already having problems out there)
3. The universe is more complex than complex life.
4. Therefore, life forms were created the cosmos.
4a. Life, The universe and Everything may or may not require a creator. (And in the case of may. This omnipresent being would be so infinitely enormous that he/she/it wouldn't give two hoots about insignificant stacks of simple life join together to make something a little more complex.)

There you are it's still a little simple, I tried not to get too complex, hoping not to lose anyone.
But it could pass for answer now.

Answer 4

Item 1
Life forms are complex.

To whom? If your God, then it is something created from a passing fancy.

Item 2

Complex things require a creator this is more complex than the creation.

Why? Why should our ability to understand impose the limitation of understanding of any intellegent lifeforms around us?

Item 3

God is the only thing more complex than life.

Not hardly. The most complex thing in life is the assumptions that are made and imposed upon others, as if different life experiences, language, and culture would not have someone reach a different conclusion observing the same event. The genesis of an idea as it forms from out of no where, the effort to change it into words and then for someone to hear the words and interpret them into the exact concept is really much more complex. The chemical processes that govern biological process does not require understanding for them to work.

Item 4
therefore, life forms were created by God

Define God. Not everyone has the same concept as to who or what God is.

Item 4a
God did not require a creator.

Some people may argue that God had a creator and he was man.

the processes that created life was put into place long before man walked the face of the earth. The question you are asking is not a scientific question but a philosophical one. If there is a God, wither or not we believe he exist would not have an effect on his state of existence. If the concept of God is dependent on our understanding of the cosmos, then it would only be natural that as we gain more knowledge of the cosmos, the face of god would change accordingly. We each struggle for answers on wither or not God is separate from the universe or wither the universe itself is god. Some of us are contented with drawing from religious text and others see the world in more scientific terms. It becomes complex when we try to turn spiritual teachings into science, and science into spiritual teachings. Science are the observable processes in the physical world around us. Spiritual concepts has no form outside of the mind.

We can use your father as an example. Your Grandfather and your mother and aunts and uncles would be able to point him out as being the same person. Yet each of you would have a different concept has who he was. None of you have the same relationship and the concept of him would be different in each of your minds. It would not match the concept in your fathers mind. Where does it state that everyone should have the same level of understanding or the same relationship with God. The relationship is not dependent upon god, but our ablitly to understand the world around us.

Answer 5

Obviously we can't appeal to a super-intelligence to explain intelligence. It's the same as invoking an existing being to explain existence.

I think most theologians, however, would object to....

"2. Complex things require a creator that is more complex than the creation.
3. God is the only thing more complex than life."

The best counter-argument I've heard is from Alvin Plantinga. He argues that assuming life and intelligence must be complex is begging the question, it assumes that natural observed life is the only type of life possible.

Answer 6

I'd say the problem is in your argument.

As a Christian, I never hypothesized that the "reason" I believe in God is because life forms are complex. So, #2 may be true but it is not necessarily a rule. Therefore, God not having a creator is not an exception because the rule you site cannot be proved.

Our understanding of complexity is limited. Knowing there is a God, whose form, complexity, omnipotence, knowledge etc. is far beyond my comprehension means also that my belief in him is not based on my ability to logically assess his existence.

I believe in God because my soul yearns for him. As I seek to know him, I find he draws me closer to him. This is something that happens outside the realm of the intellect. Not that the intellect is unaware, but it cannot be confined to the limits of the intellect. At that point you step into faith, which most non-believers feel is a cop out. But believers know it to be the very substance of belief.

Answer 7

See if you believe in God you have something to turn too. If you don't you have nothing so you would drift off into space going Aaaargggggggggg.. So God is a good safety net for the bad times which are many which we have to face before we get completely obliterated which if that happens and you have no God you got oblivion or heaven which is a good home for a weary sufferer. The other thing is the deniablity factor you admit you don't know anything and you leave everything up to God then you have nothing to worry about and your life is ten times less complex. It's good question it means you are an adamant seeker of the truth and the truth shall set you free.

Answer 8

You may be referring to "the god of the gaps" postulation. The one in which a lack of current scientific understanding points to a god. This is a disservice to the notion of God.

Physics has informed us, in the Big Bang Theory, of the existence of a singularity from which sprang the Universe. Within that singularity was all of the information of the Universe; it had to be. Omniscience.
Was that God?
I don't believe so.
The singularity should have been content to stay just the way it was. Kinda like the singularity of a black hole.
No, there had to be an initiating action.

There's an argument which can at least be discussed.

I believe it is very important to talk about the God concept. From whichever point of view one comes from, it helps put things in perspective. Whether you think we are a bit of thinking stardust (in which case, the Universe, curiously, is studying itself) or an act of Creation, these arguments put us on a common path towards eventual understanding.

Answer 9

Complexity, and especially the massive complexity required for intelligence, can only arise from an antecedent, non-intelligent process - In the case of life on Earth, this means biological evolution, a fact which is attested to by a vast amount of real objective evidence

Answer 10

It's not really that complex of a concept because God was created by primitive man to explain the natural disasters and other so called phenomenon which is now being proven and totally explained by science. ESPECIALLY Quantum physics.

Basically we as spiritual energy created God and this Universe. Without the observer an atom has no characteristics that are "solid", as soon as it is observed? It is solid. Just as we are.

Answer 11

you are involving a lot of logic between spirituallity. I think this argument is infinite and u will not know the answer. and if u get to know it, u will not get to live to tell the story. If we are here or a purpose, are we trying to find out what we are discussing here? there are many reasons in to this and if we do get to answer it, we might just be worthy to be God anyways, right? and i think if God created us (if He did or not or did or not....) he would not make us think of the answer beyond what u were asking. We were given a time here but not think beyond this so we are actually wasting time. But it is also not a bad question too because this question is just a curiousity of our life given to us. i believe we are just living as a organism that lives and breathes on earth, just accepting the time to 'go'. and maybe, i believe, its just a conspiracy made a long time ago, maybe.