Why people do not think 9mm is not a powerful round?

Question

I feel certain that ANYONE who has ever been shot by a 9mm complained about it because it wasn't a .45 or a 10mm.... , you'd know their are plenty of 9mm rounds with PROVEN ballistics that equal and surpass the 40sw round, and come very close to equalling the .45 acp's energy displacement. Just because you might not like a certain caliber DOES NOT mean it's ineffective, it simply means you don't like the round. In a combat situation, or self defense scenario, your average distance is going to be less than 21 feet(7 yards) a solid torso shot with a "wimpy" 9mm will put you down just as fast as a 40sw,.45acp or 10mm will. The germans developed the 9mm parabellum( means for war) during ww2, the countless dead GI's killed by the 9mm apparently didn't think the 9mm is ineffective.
What do you think?

Answer 1

A lot of your info is incorrect. First off, the 9mm round, just like any military round ( other than russia and china) is designed as a "ball" round because in war it is supposed to wound and not kill whenever possible. Politics aside, they did that because they knew that a wounded soldier would require the assistance of at least two other soldiers to render aide and get him off the battle field. This effectively removed 3 combatants with one shot. Further, the 9mm round being of smaller diameter and high velocity, tended to pass thru the person without passing on enough of it's energy to stop or kill the person quickly. Science determined that it takes approximateley 85 ft pounds of energy transfer to kill or stop the person in his tracks. Yes, some of the new 9mm rounds, especially ones like the hornady TAP loads work very well in a 9mm. I personally have seen people shot with the 9mm round. Results were not very good in most cases. That includes a bad guy shot at point blank range by a fellow deputy. He shot the guy twice in the abdomen with winchester silvertips. The guy still managed to injure the deputy and fight off 2 more until he finally collapsed (and lived after surgery). Another guy, while intoxicated, decided to commit suicide by shooting himself in the right temple with his S&W 9mm. The round passed completely thru his head, exited his left temple and bounced off the far wall. The gentleman was sitting on his couch, still holding the pistol in his hand and singing when my partner and I arrived on scene. He lived for 12 more hours, before passing away at the hospital.The most times a single suspect was hit with a 9mm round before he went down, was a nutcase who was wasted on PCP, he took 200 hits from 9mm pistols before he stayed down. Now, that's not a normal case, but it is a true one never the less.And it is brought up in just about every law enforcement academy and discussed. The 40 S&W round is, in my opinion better than the 9mm, but it is basically just an anemic .45acp round. Yes, I am a .45 acp fanatic when it comes to self defense. I have carried firearms in .38 special, .357 mag and 9mm when department policy mandated their use. But, whenever possible, I carried a firearm chambered in .45 acp, Both on and off duty. I still carry a pistol in .45acp to this day. It is pretty darned rare for a person to take two hits from a .45acp and stay on his feet. They don't refer to a .45acp hollow point as a "flying ash tray" for no reason!! And no, the 9mm does not come close ( as you say) to the .45acps energy displacement. The standard 115 grain 9mm round moving at much greater speed, cannot physically match (or even come close) to the .45acp's 230 grain bullet traveling at 850 fps. Just isn't physically possible. The 147 grain subsonic 9mm round doesn show slightly more "stopping power" but still won't come close to equaling the .45acp. If a person states that they "don't like" a cartridge, it usually means they have a reason. Yes, some people just follow the voicings of others who may have bad experiences wiith the 9mm, but most, like myself can show why they don't like it. Most law enforcement went to it because of the high mag capacity over their 6 shot revolvers. But now, most departments as well as all the special forces units of all branches of the military, along with the FBI and many other law enforcement groups are retiring their "wonder nines" and going back to the .45acp. Even the U.S. military is reconsidering the .45acp round in it's weapons trials. There has to be a reason that many people and departments are switching back. Would I turn down a 9mm if it was all I had access to? no, I'd just make sure it had the proper load and keep shooting till the guy went down.
Shoot safe

Answer 2

In some sense, you are correct. A dead person doesn't really care that it was a 9mm or .45 or a .22.

As far as why it was developed, the 9mm is lighter and the trooper can carry more ammunition for the weapon given the same weight in the field. There is a belief that more is better...generally speaking that is true.

However, like you siad, most shots are at a distance of 21 feet. IMHO the energy expelled by the 9mm can and will over penetrate the target more often than not. For weapons used in war, we are not talking about expanding ammunition, but FMJ ball ammo.

Even with today's ammunition, the guarantee of an expanding hollowpoint is not 100%.

Given the need to transfer of energy from the lighter faster 9mm bullet to the intended target, the lighter faster is not necessarilly a good thing at the closer distance. For that purpose, I would prefer a slow, heavy round. The .45 for example.

There is a saying that is a good one... while a 9mm may expand, a .45 doesn't shrink.

While I prefer the .45 for self defense, the 9mm is a good choice. There is a great supply of ammunition, it is relatively cheap, and can carry more rounds in the magazine. There are decent expansion rounds available.

I prefer to only need the 8 or so I bring with me... occasionally I have 15 (second mag) and sometimes I have 23 (third Mag). I train often, and am confident that in most situations, the 8 I brought with me should suffice. I can re-load VERY quickly should I need more.

It is a personal decision. Take no offense to the weapon you choose to defend your life with. Stick with it. Learn to use it well.

Answer 3

I think a lot of it has to do with the .45 being replaced by the 9mm in the military and the experts who were brought up using the .45 didn't like the 9mm near as much so bad mouthed it, and this has carried over to today. If it was so much worse than the .45 then why are the military and most police units still using it?

I saw this in the service with the M-14 being replaced with the M-16 Mattie Mattel. Other than a reduced range, the benefits of the .223 in the field far outweighed the .308 of the M-14 yet their were some die hards that preferred the M-14 because that is what they know and were used to.

I use a 9mm Hi-Power as my personal carry. I feel the extra rounds more than make up for what I consider overkill of the larger rounds. You can see this on some of the posts for deer rifles. A lot of people don't believe a 30/30 is adequate for shooting a deer despite the history of the gun bringing down more deer than any other, and that you need a bare minimum of 30.06 or 7mm magnum to bring down a 150lb deer. I think some people just feel bigger is better and won't be swayed by facts.

Answer 4

Real world combat experience is what determines a particular caliber/load efficacy. The military currently serving in Iraq, unless they are part of an elite squad than can choose their own sidearms, have been quoted as saying that they don't like having to shoot 3 times w/ the Beretta (9mm) in order to put a man down. The issue is not immediate death, which is highly improbable with a pistol; the issue is rendering the opponent incapable of returning fire. Any bullet can cause enough tissue damage and blood loss to lead to death eventually - it's a matter of time without medical attention.
The military have confronted this problem before in the Spanish-American war in the Philippines, the soldiers were issued 38 caliber revolvers. The 45ACP was developed to address the concerns of those soldiers.
The whole reason the 9mm was adopted was that all other NATO countries, of which America is the primary member, were using 9mm - another problem associated with globalism.

Answer 5

Most Powerful 9mm

Answer 6

The military uses fmj only, do to NATO rules. You can put 6 rounds of 9mm fmj in a target, and not kill it. But 3 rounds.45 fmj equals dead. Even with jhp I teach four 9mm three .40 two .45 center mass.

Answer 7

A 9mm isn't a bad round, but its stopping power pales in comparison to a .40s&w or a .45. A lot of stories come back from Iraq about guys being shot several times with a 9mm before going down. In my opinion, the military should upgrade to a .40 s&w, but that's because, due to the rules of the Geneva Convention, they have to use full metal jacket rounds. Though I've never shot anyone with either (or at all, for that matter), I'm pretty confident that a 9mm loaded with hollow points, especially high quality ones like Federal Hydra-Shocks, would have ample stopping power if the bullet is properly placed.

Answer 8

First of all to those that say the 9mm was adopted by NATO because of its superior killing capacity they are hugely mistaken. It was adopted by the US Military because of the larger magazine capacity it allowed. And we pushed it through to get adopted by NATO.

Secondly the 9mm parabellum developed by the Germans during WW2 was not designed to Kill. It was designed to wound and maim so as to slow up the enemy by making them care for more wounded and thereby using up their available logistics resources.

Third to answer the main question, the only way the 9mm will knock you down is if it is one of the specifically designed rounds to compete with larger ballistics tables with the use of hollow points etc. However if you go with straight ball ammo the 9mm fails miserably.

Several years before 9/11 there was a terrorist attack on the Air base in the country of Qatar. A man wielding an Ak-47 stepped out of a car and started unloading automatic fire on the gate. At this time in that country, Military personnel were not allowed to be seen armed by the local citizens so the Guard in the gate was not armed. However we were allowed to have armed patrols inside the compound. Hearing the automatic gunfire, an armed Senior Airmen on foot patrol ran to the gate to aid his buddy under fire. He was only armed with the M9 Beretta 9x19mm NATO pistol. Upon getting there, he immediatly began returning fire. Heavily outgunned he continued advancing on the gunman using available cover. When the gunman finally fell he had been hit with at least 8 rounds of 9mm center mass.

Basically 9mm Ball ammo ballistics is not weak in the least, but it just does not create enough damage on entry or exit to take a man down. This is also why the Military is moving back towards the .45 caliber.

Answer 9

a 40 s&w is better no matter what you say. my brothers a cop and he shoots the 40 s&w, so does everyone else on the police force. 9mm ammo is cheap and it will kill. but you can kill someone with a slingshot if you know how to use it right. i have my problems with the 9mm though. i know a WWII vet who has several German 9mm's still in him and he's not dead. a 9mm is really only affective against a person if it hits in the center mass or the head. a 40s&w on the other hand , will be incapacitating even if it doesn't hit center mass. it packs more of a punch if the target is wearing body armor also.

Answer 10

The 9mm is a fine and proven defensive round. When compared to the 10mm, .357 Sig and newer .50 GI it is a bit puny. The better 9mm loads compare to the .40 S & W & .45 acp loads. What gave the 9mm a bad rap was the 147 grain subsonic load lauded at one time as the best thing since sliced bread. We've learned that was far, far from the truth. The other problem with the 9mm is using ball ammo for defensive purposes. With the 9mm you need fast, light quality defensive ammo in the 115 to 127 grain range.

Best.

H

Answer 11

I agree round preference is totally on the person. if i want a self defense weapon im not afraid of a 9 mm. but I prefer general stopping power in a handgun.. under circumstances and just the sheer size of the 45 round compared to a 9mm allows it to have a higher inertia this keep its velocity. Ive also seen instances of guys who are heavily influenced on pcp and a simple shot with a 9mm just wont put them down well with side arms atleast. the 9mm shines the best in my opinion when fired out of sub machine weapons like the MP5 simply because the bullet just does not have enough stopping power per bullet as a 45 but a burst of them on the other hand... :-)