Question about reinforcement?

Question

I am trying to housebreak this dog, he has relapsed after more than six months- closer to a year!

Anyhoo... people keep telling me reward the positive (if I give fata$$ a treat every time he takes a whiz outside he'll explode) but to completely ignore the negative, in other words do nothing whatsoever if he whizzes on the rug.

Now tell me, I took psych courses, Pavlov dealt with dogs in his studies... What I remember is that positive reinforcement for + behavior, negative reinforcement (punishment) for negative behavior had the quickest teaching results.

WHY are people telling me not to punish my dog for whizzing on the rug???? Isn't that sending a message that I DON'T MIND?? 'Cause I do!!! I mind a lot!!

I'm not a dog abuser, but that is nice and high and mighty of you, thanks.

It isn't an accident. It's a relapse.

Alright alright I get it, it technically is not negative reinforcement. I was in psych class fifteen yrs ago... sheesh, you all knew what I meant anyway. Think of it as a typo.

Thanks for the suggestions. He isn't really ever alone, it's just that from time to time he's in a room alone, say if only one person is home and goes into the other room.

I'm going to clean the whole carpet, maybe try the white vinegar thing to get rid of the smell.

I don't like hitting my dog. I don't enjoy even yelling at my dog. It is reassuring to see a professional trainer confirm what I'm thinking, that punishment (in the form of "HEY WTF!!") is not the worst thing. It is, after all, my natural, instinctive reaction...LOL
I don't want him to fear me, HOWEVER, I do want him to know that in our world, our home, I am the alpha dog, not him!

I always tell him he's a good boy. Always. I think he wants to be good. I think he is just sidetracked, and w/check for UTI @vet.

I feed once daily because he'd been packing it on, so he's a bit lighter now. I do walk him quite a bit, five times a day. I can't walk him every hour. My sense is this is probably behavioral and not a bladder control issue, but since I'm going to the vet it will definitely be discussed.

He is getting neutered, prepped tonight, surgery tomorrow.

No, this is not punishment for peeing**
It is for several reasons actually, the marking territorry being one of them.

One more thing... "fata$$" and "f*cker" are terms of endearment, like "sweetie" or "cutie pie." I really do love the little guy, and he's quite bright and affectionate. I was aggravated when I wrote the question. Could you tell? :)

Answer 1

People are giving you this answer because they think it's what a "dog whisperer" should do.

If you *catch* the dog weeing on the rug, by all means - give a sharp "NO!" and swat them on the fanny. Immediately take them outside to finish the task.

I ended up retraining my puppy after she spent too much time without schooling being maintained.

The problem with dogs is the fact that if you don't catch them in the act of doing something wrong, all they hear is you yelling at them for no apparent reason. This is why you can only do the negative reinforcement when you actually catch them.

Best of luck to you! It does get better, it just takes time! :D

Answer 2

Firstly I also study a Psych degree, Pavlov firstly although a good psychologist wasn't a dog owner (as far as I know) at least not the same way we are. He used his dogs for experiments - totally different thing. He also lived in the 1800's! 200 years ago! Things change.

Dog's thrive on attention, they want to do whatever it is that gets them attention from you and a lot of the time they will not differentiate between positive and negative attention. After all it's still all attention! Besides that if you tell your dog off for going inside then all you'll do is make him scared of you and he'll still do it - just not in a place so obvious. If you got hit/told off every time you went to the loo would it make you less likely to go? Probably not!

By positively rewarding the behaviour you want (going outside) and ignoring the behaviour you don't want (going inside) the dog is only getting attention (the thing it thrives on the most) by doing the behaviour you want.

It doesn't matter how long it's been since your pup was 'house-trained' it can still be an accident.

Also have you taken your dog to the vet? There could be a medical reason behind it such as a UTI.

Answer 3

Because some people don't believe in the word punishment and other are afraid you might think it means hitting the dog or beating the dog. Negative reinforcement comes in many forms it should be unpleasant for the animal not seriously painful. If you just ignore children when they are bad they don't learn negative consequences neither do animals.

In the wild animals learn to avoid things that have a negative consequence. I don't believe in only positive reinforcement for kids or animals but that said I don't think a lot of people understand how to discipline and it just becomes bad really really fast.

I read a book and watched a video with the monks of new skete (sp?) they were good and practical training methods and there was no harsh treatment of the dogs although many people will tell you that a training collar the methods used are bad I think it depends on your dog. Most dog seem to respond fairly well to positive reinforcement but some do not they only behave when it will reward them ignoring their bad behavior really doesn't work for them. I know I have a dog who I have worked with for years and who I will have to work with until he dies he is independent and stubborn and if I let down my guard he starts behaving poorly again

**** Note that I think you should go to a professional to help you with the issue whatever you do to correct this problem you will need to be able to understand how the dog will respond best I hired a professional to come to my home and went to training classes and was still advised that it would always be a job to keep him under control. Thankfully he doesn't use the house for a toliet but he does not like strangers or the door bell

Answer 4

If you catch him in the act, you can interrupt the behavior with a stern "NO" or whatever, then take him out side and then praise and/or treat when he goes. If you don't catch him in the act, it's way too late for him to associate his behavior with the scolding or whatever.

BTW, Pavlov didn't study reinforcement, that was Skinner. Negative reinforcement is NOT punishment; it strengthens or "reinforces" behavior by the behavior resulting in something bad going away. Usually not as effective as positive reinforcement, but reinforcement just the same. Punishment is something else entirely, and there is both positive and negative punishment.

Answer 5

Treats are NOT the only form of positive reinforcement you can give the dog. Sometimes a simple "Good potty!" and a pat on the head will suffice, depending on the personality of the dog. They key with housetraining is consistency.

ONLY if you catch the dog in the act of urinating on your rug, say "NO!" and take him outside. When he finishes out there, then praise and pet. IF YOU DO NOT CATCH HIM IN THE ACT -- Do nothing but clean it up. The dog does not understand punishment after the fact, and you will only manage to frighten the dog.

Also, a quick note: Negative reinforcement is NOT punishment (I thought you took a psychology course?). Here's a link to a decent wikipedia article on the subject, if you're interested: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reinforcement

Answer 6

What caused the relapse? Is it pure house-soiling? Or marking? Submissive urination? Dogs don't generally just 'relapse'....a change causes these kinds of behaviors. Is he drinking more than usual? Is he unaltered? I would first consult a vet to be sure it's not a physical ailment (kidney infection, UTI, diabetes). If he has a clean bill of health, then it's a psychological issue. Praising the positive doesn't have to mean giving the dog a treat all the time....physical praise and verbal praise work just as well. Discipline the behavior if you need to ( as long as it doesn't involve physical discipline or rubbing his nose in it...a stern 'NO' should suffice)

Answer 7

first..i'd be concerned if there was a physical (like a UTI) or psychological reason (any home changes?) to why he started having accidents again.
If that's all ruled out, then imo, i believe in positive reward, but it doesnt always work in all situations. Like my one puppy shows sudden bursts of aggression..positive reinforcement didnt work and wasnt going to.

Punishing a dog doesnt always give you the result you want. I'm sure Pavlov's dogs who were punished, were scared to death. I dont want my dogs scared of me.
You can get a dog to want to please you and do the behaviors you ask without fear involved..

Hitting a dog if he pees inside, might just make him go more. And say you hit him, he might pee because he has no idea what you are asking him to do, if you dont reward him with at least praise for the right behavior.

Pavlov conditioned the dogs to salivate for food every time he rang a bell. So maybe ring a bell every time you want your dog to go potty (when youre outside) and when he does reward with a PIECE of a treat or just praise.
Or instead of a bell just say "go potty!"

Answer 8

First off, go reread your psych book. Punishment is not the same thing as negative reinforcement.

Second, the worst punishment you can give a dog is to ignore them completely. However it is a peaceful and passive punishment that does not scare them or contribute to aggressive behavior as so many other punishments do. They are emotionally sensitive animals, use it to your advantage.

A sharp NO will work if you manage to catch him in the act of something, but otherwise its no good whatsoever as he wont remember what he did to deserve the punishment.

Answer 9

Dogs respond to attention---any kind of attention, be it positive or negative. It's better to praise them when they do what you want then to scold them or "punish" them when they don't. They also have short memory spans. How about when your dog goes on the rug you take him out so he can make the connection again that he's supposed to go out there? You really need patience, especially since this pup is under a year old and is having a relapse. My dog did the same thing around 8 months and after I redirected him the matter cleared itself up within a week.

Answer 10

Positive reinforcement does not always has to be in the form of treats. Happy praise, good neck scratch.

If your dog has relapsed, back up a few steps to when you were initially training. Crate when he cannot be supervised, only free time in the house when he's done business outside.

And you're right, treats every single time they do "good" will make them explode.