Cross or Torture Stake?

Question

JEHOVAH’S Witnesses say Jesus wasn’t crucified, but was put to death on a torture stake. What are your thoughts?

Also, I'd like you guys to read this short article and tell me what you think:
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1991/9110fea1.asp

Answer 1

Actually, Jehovah's Witnesses do not quibble over the term "crucified", since the term is honestly derived from the Latin "crux" (which means a torture stake)..

Further, Jehovah's Witnesses do not claim to be certain that Christ was impaled on a "crux simplex" rather than a "crux immissa". Of course, the English expression "torture stake" describes either.
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/crux_simplex
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucifixion#Cross_shape

Ironically, pro-cross activists seem to ignore the fact that they themselves actually believe that Christ was impaled on a torture stake, albeit a stake with a crossbeam ("patibulum") attached.

It seems ironic also that the Greek term "stauros" was used to refer to either a plain or crossed stake, and the Latin term "crux" was used to refer to either a plain or crossed stake, and the English term "torture stake" can be used to refer to either a plain or crossed stake. Yet, pro-cross activists seem intent on shouting down any possibility other than their cherished but unsupportable tradition.

True Christians (such as Jehovah's Witnesses) do not behave in such a closeminded manner, and in fact true Christians (such as Jehovah's Witnesses) spend little time arguing about the exact shape of Christ's instrument of impalement. As true disciples of Christ, Jehovah's Witnesses do not distract from his message of the good news by going around denouncing the cross and other idols. Instead, Witnesses believe that the bible plainly forbids idolatry of any kind, including the worshipful use of icons such as crucifixes. That information is not used to condemn the ignorant, but to help those who demonstrate an interest in bringing their lives into harmony with true Christianity.
http://watchtower.org/bible/1jo/chapter_005.htm?bk=1jo;chp=5;vs=21;citation#bk21
http://watchtower.org/bible/ac/chapter_017.htm?bk=ac;chp=17;vs=29;citation#bk29

(1 John 5:21) Guard yourselves from idols.

(Acts 17:29) We ought not to imagine that the Divine Being is like gold or silver or stone, like something sculptured by the art and contrivance of man


The exact shape of Christ's instrument of death is hardly a central doctrine of the faith, but Jehovah's Witnesses do happen to believe that Jesus was almost certainly impaled on a simple stake, rather than a cross of two intersecting beams. Of course the Romans had the ability to create a cross, and probably did. But ask yourself: why they would have bothered when a simple stake would have worked just as well or better?

The bible most assuredly does NOT offer any proof that the stake was actually a cross of two intersecting beams. The actual facts of the bible may be enlightening to examine...

You may be interested to see how your own copy of the bible translates Acts 5:30, Galatians 3:13, Deuteronomy 21:22, 23, and Acts 10:39. The King James, Revised Standard, Dyaglott, and Jerusalem Bible translate the instrument of Christ's death simply as "stake" or "tree" because the original wording simply does not support the idea that this was more than a piece of upright wood. The English word "cross" is an imprecise translation of the Latin word "crux". Note this image of crucifixion performed with a "crux simplex", such as seems to have been used to execute Jesus:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Justus_Lipsius_Crux_Simplex_1629.jpg

It is also eye-opening to examine how the first-century Christians felt about idols of any kind, much less one that glorified an instrument of death.

Learn more:
http://watchtower.org/e/200604a/article_01.htm
http://watchtower.org/e/20050508a/article_01.htm
http://watchtower.org/e/rq/index.htm?article=article_11.htm
http://watchtower.org/e/19960715/article_01.htm

Answer 2

"For I decided not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ, and him impaled." I Corinthians 2:2 (NWT). The Watch Tower paints a perverse picture of Jesus impaled by a stake. An upright phallic symbol that is much older than most of the cross-like imitations of the adversary We see these "impaling" phallic objects to this very day in obelisks, steeples, and maypoles. Of course the Watch Tower has not taught the cross. That would be teaching Jesus redemptive act and people coming to an understanding that that Watch Tower cannot have taught. The Cross is called a cross by early church leaders when writing to each other in their native languages in the first and second century. The impaling stake is one of the Watch Tower "Strongholds" Stronghold are two things. 1. Doctrine that has a strong hold on the follower and 2. A base tenent that the Watch Tower has set. These set deceptions are also so deeply ingrained that followers have a very difficult time seeing past them.

Answer 3

If after all of that someone persists in the "telephone-pole" execution, they're just being stubborn.

The article plainly and simply shows the myriad accounts and evidences PROVING that Jesus was CRUCIFIED on a CROSS.

I've also heard the reasoning from the JW's that the Jews had Him nailed to a torture stake in order to mock Him, saying the torture stake was representative of the male sex organ.

The stupidity of that is the Jews were not in charge of carrying out the executions. It would have been the Roman's job, and they would have been indifferent. To them, Jesus was just another troublemaker, and was going to be killed like any other criminal. They would have made no special provisions, nor changed their style of execution.

The JW insistence on the torture-stake execution is nothing more than another attempt by them to show that they are the "true" religion because they are the only ones that believe this, thereby giving them a separate identity from the rest of Christendom, to give them an identifying "mark" as the "true church".

It's a load. A little education, which the article provided, quickly dispels their stupidity. If only the JW members would do the same.

God bless.

Answer 4

The Jehovah's Witnesses had to find some way to distant themselves from what they considered a worshipped idol (Cross). Keep in mind most of the converted JWs were former Catholics, so they desperately had to find a blind hill to keep the former Catholics from looking back at what JWs think was their former idol, the Cross. We do know why they had to do it, then they had to figure out a way how to make a convincing doctrine, which is to twist the stauros meaning into something less significant, that torture stake. We should all keep in mind that the Cross is a torture stake, only with a cross beam added with it, so they like to use the words 'simple torture stake'.

I would like the Jehovah's Witnesses figure out how Thomas mentioned 'nails' (plural) imprinted into Jesus' 'hands' (plural) in John 20:25 as it would read in Greek, so a singular 'nail' was not used in that verse. Then let them explain how a sign was erected on the Cross 'above His head' in Matthew 27:37, and this sign was written in 'Hebrew, Latin and Greek' in John 19:20, so how can such a large sign in three languages placed above His head leave enough room for His two hands to be nailed together with only 'one nail' (so they want to believe) above His head if this was a simple stake? The Bible DID NOT say the sign was above His hands, so face it, if we were to mention a sign somewhere we would say where exactly it is located. In this case, they erected the sign above His head, not above His hands. If the Jehovah's Witnesses can believe in this simple torture stake doctrine among many other false and illogical doctrines, they can believe in ANYTHING!!!

Answer 5

Lion of Judah

Thats some pretty false logic there about the use of nails. Notice that he used the term "hands" shows that theres more than one nail print. Also, just because it uses the term "nails" doesn't mean he was put to death on a Cross.

Stauros never meant Cross, and even most Greek Scholars believe that. If its not the original meaning, then the obvious meaning of it is a stake or a pale.

Answer 6

Now this is a very important question. It's worth spending your time worrying about. The end result is the same, since Jesus ends up dead, either way, but we may as well worry about that stake or cross, because it beats worrying about the hungry, the homeless, the jobless, the underpaid, the uninsured, the War!

Yes, why worry about piddly problems like those listed when you can worry about whether Jesus died on a stake or a cross, thus stirring up a little controversy between religions, naturally feeling that your own religion is better than any others, and always correct, no matter what anyone else says.

My advice is to ..get real! What would it matter how Jesus died, whether nailed or tied, whether stabbed or beaten? What matters is solving the many problems we are facing today and doing your best to alleviate them.

Answer 7

Putting aside for the moment the differences between "classical" Greek and the Koine Greek widely used and spoken in the first century ...

... and the fact that there is no poverty of terms in Latin, and if the "stauros" was indeed felt to mean a stake then it would have been translated into Latin as "stipes" rather than "crux" ...

... and the fact that first- and second-century writers, such as Seneca the Younger and Dionysius of Halicarnassus among others, in discussing executions by crucifixion clearly described stretching out of arms on a crossbeam (Seneca's word is translated into English as "gibbet" from the Latin "patibulum" which is indeed a crossbeam) ...

... putting aside all of this plus much, much more historical and archeological scholarship pointing unmistakably to a cross:

It is of little consequence what the instrument of Jesus' torture and death actually looked like. We are 2000+ years removed from the time. And what immediately comes to mind when someone sees a cross? Even unbelievers associate it with Christ. His death and subsequent resurrection are the significant events here; the rest is props.

I find it slightly amusing that a bunch of johnny-come-lately 20th century freelance interpreters of the Bible, having concluded that the cross was instead a "stake", think their opinion is some sort of revelation that's supposed to set the Christian world on its ear. What next, splitting hairs over the thickness and height of this "stake"? Or perhaps what type of wood was used? How far away are they going to get from what Christ did in their eagerness to dissect the event?

They also tell us repeatedly that they call God by his "proper name" and ask us why we don't. My response is always that I can call Him "Father", and for some reason that upsets them ...

I suppose if the most one can hope for is to be on a first-name basis with God instead of one of His children, this cross/stake business might be a way to feel one has superior knowledge as a consolation.

Answer 8

Actually, the cross fits the description of “a tree” because it alone has the “branch” that a tree has.
John 20:25 and Matthew 27:37 are clear proofs that the above picture of Jesus on a stake with one nail piercing his two wrists and the inscription above his hand are wrong.

John 20:25 says:

Consequently the other disciples would say to him: “We have seen the Lord!” But he said to them: “Unless I see in his hands the print of the nails and stick my finger into the print of the nails and stick my hand into his side, I will certainly not believe.” [New World Translation]

Thomas wants to see “in his hands” the print of the nails not the print of “the nail (singular)”. Isn’t this awful for the Watchtower Organization?

Matthew 27:37 says:

“Also, they posted above his head the charge against him, in writing: “This is Jesus the King of the Jews.”” [New World Translation]

According to the above picture, it is “above his hand”, Which is it?

Answer 9

maybe they mean the same thing? I don't know but I do know he was nailed to a cross. It was something that the romans did back then, they had it perfected. They knew how long it took for them to die while being up there, it was like a profession. It's not like Jesus was the only one to be ever crucified on a cross, He was just the most significant to do so because He took our sins away.

Answer 10

Cross or Torture Stake?
JEHOVAH’S Witnesses say Jesus wasn’t crucified, but was put to death on a torture stake. What are your thoughts?

Answer: Your evil person walked the Precious Blood that Jesus sh ed for this person's sin on a cross after being scourge with 39 lashes of the whip called the cat of nine tails to the point of death with the metal and bone pieces tearing the skin of Jesus body horrible to the point that most people could not live through this scourging and the torturer would have to stop short of 39 lashes. Then the Roman soldiers plated a crown of thorn and beat it into the scalp of Jesus with rods. Put a robe of purple on Jesus and Mocked and spit on him then made Jesus carry the cross that Jesus would die on up Golgotha Hill outside of the City of Jerusalem to be crucified for this sinners evil deeds.
But this evil person walked the Precious Blood of Jesus under foot and rejected the Crucifixion where Jesus paid this persons Sin Debt and all of mankind as well.
God has every right to turn such a evil person in Hell because he was so arrogant and wicked that he rejected Jesus and the sacrifice that Jesus had made for him.

So Christians, how do you rationalize this as being fair and just?

Also, I'd like you guys to read this short article and tell me what you think:
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1991/91...

Answer 11

That article is interesting... but I have to add that just because religious people have ALL their attention on that event DOESN'T make it an important event. Jesus DID NOT indicate that the torture was good news for mankind.

He said "the light will be with you just a little while longer." Does that sound like good news for mankind?

He also inferred just before that event that the tree was about to DRY UP! Does that sound like good news to you?

Cross or stake... it doesn't matter, since the important things happened BEFORE the crucifixion... since Jesus said that his MISSION on earth was to PREACH THE GOSPEL. Luke 4:43.