LDS peeps....The Great Apostacy ? Or ....not?

Question

What if this never happened?
"And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall, not prevail against it."
Matthew 16:18

So if you beleive there was an apostacy than one of the following must be true. (1) Jesus' words in the passages just cited were misreported; (2) Jesus did in fact say these things but didn't really mean them--at least not in the way they had been understood by Christians for the first eighteen centuries; (3) Jesus was a liar, or (4) Joseph Smith was wrong and Jesus meant what he said.

Matthew 24:4-12; Mark 13:21-23; Luke 21:7-8; Acts 20:29-30; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12; 2 Timothy 3:1-7, 4:1-4; 2 Peter 2:1-3; and Jude 17-19. Passages that say that "many" will fall away. This refers to apostacy in an individual sense. Not a complete apostacy of the entire Church.

The Lord established the position of Bishop to ensure that the church continued. There was no Great Apostacy. There is apostacy of individuals, and there is corruption in all man made institutions but the Church continued through the position of the Bishop.

Answer 1

Can anyone prove that Peter was the same Peter the Catholics say he was? The founder of their church. Im not LDS but my understanding is that the Historians are not 100% sure he is the same guy. Jesus called Peter, Cephus which means rock. Jesus said he was "The word" and he has been here a very long time, even before God put him on Earth as a human. Also are we sure that the Catholics were the only Christian group in the beginning of Christianity. The Disciples were to travel and preach the message everywhere, the Catholics came from the Romans who witnessed the miracles and Jesus rising from the dead and realized he was the son of God and Christianity grew from that in Rome. It is said that Pontius Pilot witnessed Jesus and wrote of these matters on a deer skin that survives today in the Vatican. I think Peter was the beginning of the word being taught on Earth as in the teachings of Jesus. Also it should be noted that when Jesus arose from the dead he traveled and spoke too people, not just the disciples.

Answer 2

You have received some good answers already. I also concur that the "rock" in verse 18 is the rock of revelation; the context is given in verse 17, in which Jesus says to Peter, "flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven".

Still, even with the understanding that Jesus started the Church with Peter, we need not worry that hell has prevailed over the Church despite there having been an Earthly apostasy. If God's Church was corrupted and lost through apostasy, but later restored, does this mean that hell has prevailed?

I would like to add to this discussion, by quoting the following from Signs of the True Church of Christ, by Michael T. Griffith:

"Some cite Matthew 16:18, offering it as what they regard as proof that an apostasy did not occur. The passage reads as follows: 'And I [Christ] say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.'

"How does this verse apply to the apostasy? Does it mean that the falling away was not complete? If so, then what about the numerous New Testament prophecies of an impending apostasy? What about the prophecies concerning a restoration of the gospel? And what about the overwhelming historical evidence than an apostasy did in fact take place?

"The correct interpretation of Matthew 16:18 becomes clear when it is understood what the expression 'the gates of hell' meant to the Early Church. In early Christian theology, the gates of hell were the entrances to the prison portion of the spirit world. Thus, the Savior was simply saying that Satan would not ultimately triumph over the Church. The gospel was preached in the 'spirit prison' while the earth languished in the apostasy of the dark ages. And centuries later Peter, who received the keys of the kingdom, returned from beyond the veil in these latter days to confer those keys upon Joseph Smith, his last days counterpart. Satan and hell did not prevail; the church stands triumphant."

Answer 3

We believe that the Church Peter and Paul set up was the original Church of Christ. But they were martyred, right? Along with many the other leaders and important members of the church. The priesthood was lost after all of the apostles were martyred. The Church kept going, but because the original members of Christ's Church had been lost the new leaders started interpreting the scriptures their own ways since they did not have the guidance of Peter, Paul, etc. And whether people want to accept it or not, some of the Catholic popes and priests back then were not the best of people (just look up some history on some of them). The ones who put their intentions above Christ's teachings changed the Churches bit by bit too. When the new leaders didn't agree with each other they eventually split formed their own churches (look at how many Christian denominations there are today). These churches had aspects of Christ's original Church, but not the whole truth. That is why we believe there was an apostasy-- because while the churches had some truth, the ENTIRE truth did not exist in one single church.

Answer 4

Peter was the "President" and "Prophet" of the orginal Church. He was the leader of the Apostles. Bishops were appointed by the apostles to head local congregations. Peter was over the whole church not the local church in one city. He had the authority to have revelation on behalf of the entire church. Hence kosher and other laws were changed by his word. When a vacancy in the 12 apostles occurred a new apostle was chosen by lot.

Years later when the Roman Emperor made Christianity the state religion, he appointed church leaders based on politics and not in the Lord's way. He wanted a unified doctrine and his selected appointees gave it to him.

Over the centuries changes were made that clearly were not in keeping with the teachings of Jesus Christ or Peter. At some point the power of the priesthood was removed from the earth. It was not restored until the Church could be restored in a land with freedom of religion, where kings and emperors could not compromise the Gospel.

Answer 5

"Where can I find the evidence that the Mormons claim for the "Great Apostasy" in official teaching. As a Historian of the early Church I find such a claim absurd but am open to why they hold such an opinion and their evidence for such a doctrine." -- I've studied early Christianity quite a bit on my own. Not nearly as much as you have, I'm sure. But EVERYTHING I've read seems to point to an apostasy-- from the comments made by Julian the Apostate (a Roman emperor who refused to convert to Christianity because he thought the church had strayed from Christ's original church), from the proceedings and circumstances surrounding the Nicene Creed, to the teachings of Arius, to the history of Christianity during the age of Christian persecution, to the Theodosian Code. I did all my research out of books written by Christians and Catholics (not Mormon), and everything seemed to scream "APOSTASY!" at me. It was quite clear to me that the church didn't have a whole lot of unity or set doctrine during those times, because of all the fights and creeds that took place over what scripture meant. So perhaps we are reading different sources. Also, why does this doctrinal position not question the veracity of Christ's teaching since He said that His Church would never fall into apostasy and would endure until the Parousia. Is it the LDS position that He lied and was incompetent in establishing His Church? -- As I recall, the verse actually says something like, "If you build my church upon this Rock, it will never fail". Peter was called the "Rock", so I know that Catholics use that verse in support of their claim that Peter was the first Pope. I also believe that Peter was the leader of Christ's church after the Resurrection, but I don't think Jesus was referring to Peter in that verse. I think he was referring to the Priesthood (which Peter would have had, being the leader of the church). And I think it refers to the gift of the Holy Ghost as well. So I read that verse as meaning "If you build my church with the Holy Ghost and the Priesthood, it will never fail". Which is true. If the Priesthood and Holy Ghost wouldn't have been lost, his church never would've failed. And you can find evidences of an apostasy in the New Testament itself. Paul apparently had issues getting people to be righteous, because he had to write all those reprimanding letters. So even back THEN, the church was having problems. Of course we don't believe that Jesus "lied" and was "incompetent". The very idea that you would even think that kind of offends me. Mormons believe in Christ just as damn much as other Christians do-- we believe he was perfect as well. Perfect people don't "lie", and they aren't "incompetent". We just interpret the Bible differently than you do. I'm sorry if that offends you, but it doesn't change the fact that we do. We've got as much a right to interpret the Bible in the manner we wish as you do.

Answer 6

This was a special blessing just for Peter.

Peter was an excellent man and an excellent disciple of Christ. He was so tenacious (who else wanted to try walking on water, with Jesus? Only he.) His faith was ALMOST unwavering (except when he denied knowing Jesus as Jesus was being tried) and he was the first disciple of Christ to acknowledge Jesus and recognize him for who he was.

Jesus did give Peter the responsibility of building his church in the early days. And he also gave it to many others. Peter was also given the keys of the priesthood, and when he died, and there were no more worthy priesthood holders to bestow this gift--the "apostasy" began.

I really do not believe that this was a terrible thing--it was part of Heavenly Father's great plan: To test the faith of human beings, to humble them, and to give them knowledge through the privilege of being able to choose between good and evil. The proper lineage of the priesthood was taken from the earth for this time, but we know that it is the responsibility of us in the latter days to heal of this.

The priesthood has been restored to us--and by Peter, who yet holds the keys. I do not understand where you find any subtlety or lies here.

Answer 7

Really reread that story.

In the story christ walks in an peter realizes immediately he was the savior. Noone else in the room really could tell. Jesus asks Peter, how did you know. Peter said because of revelation. Then Jesus goes on to state that this is the rock he will build his church upon. Not Peter, but revelation and Christ.

Peter never had authority to establish a church.



This is why there are sooo many diff sects. Because of the many many ways you can interpret the scriptures.

Answer 8

Great Question!
It’s refreshing to see actual scriptures quoted. Let’s tackle this question together.

First, Peter comes from “petros,” which means “a piece of rock.” When you look at the Greek text (the best that is available because we have no original) you will find that when Christ says “upon this rock I will build my church,” that rock in this instance is “petra,” which means “a mass of rock.” –You can find this in a Greek lexicon and/or early greek manuscripts. Readily available prints of these are Strong’s Concordance and any Greek-English New Testament Translation. Now, it is a play on words (as was stated earlier) but it really draws a distinction. It reads "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter (petros-a piece of a rock), and upon this rock (petra-a mass of rock) I will build my church….”
So, Peter is not the rock (petra) upon which Christ was to build his Church. What was the petra (mass of rock) then? Well, what is the antecedent of this last statement? It had just been REVEALED to Peter that Jesus was the Christ (v.16-17). Hence, Peter (who had just experienced personal revelation testifying of the divinity of Christ) was told that revelation (like he just experienced), was to be what the Church was built upon.
No discredit to Peter! He was an amazing man. He was the one willing to fight to protect Christ when he was taken to court (John 18:10). I personally don’t feel that Peter denied Christ “thrice” because he was scared, but because he knew that he was needed to carry on the Lord’s work and was not supposed to die at that time.

Now, as to your other scripture references, I found it interesting that you chose to quote some of them.

Acts 20:29-30 – Paul knew that after his departing (note: did not say “last days”) “grievous wolves” would enter in, and “many disciples” would be drawn away. This happened after Paul’s departure, 1900+ years ago.

As for the rest of them, we actually use those same verses to prove the apostasy and general falling away from the truth.

You also stated that, “The Lord established the position of Bishop to ensure that the church continued.” The Bishop was a shepherd that watched over “A” flock.
Now, which office was appointed to be the foundation for the entire Church? Let’s keep quoting Paul, he’s doing great.
“Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
‘And are built upon the FOUNDATION of the APOSTLES and PROPHETS, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
‘In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
‘In whom YE ALSO ARE BUILDED together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.” –Ephesians 2:19-22

If the foundation of Christ’s Church was to be apostles and prophets, which church has them today?

Some nay-sayers will say “Nay… hold on a moment. The office of apostle was only necessary for the founding of the Church and was not supposed to continue.”

Paul states that Christ gave “some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers…

Until when?

“Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ.” –Eph 4:11,13

When “we ALL come in the unity of the faith,” and every “Christian” quits quibbling about their differences we won’t need apostles anymore. Until then, we’re all trying to come to that unity of faith. Where is that? I believe it is the Church that has apostles and prophets and that is built upon the “petra” of revelation.

Best Wishes,
Rusty

Answer 9

OK, to clarify, "Upon this rock I will build my church" doesn't refer to "upon this statement of faith" or "upon this me being Christ" or anything else. It does mean Peter himself. Christ was giving Peter authority to establish His church. How do we know with so much certainlty? Because "Peter" is Greek for "Rock", that's how. Jesus was using wordplay, effectively saying "You are Peter (rock) and upon this rock (Peter) I will build my church."

Glad I cleared that up.

But Peter, and the other apostles were killed. The church fell into apostasy (note spelling) and the authority Christ had given Peter was lost. That doesn't mean that Christ was lying and the gates of hell prevailed against the church. Although wrong doctrines (such as the doctrine of the trinity) were concocted and preached, and people started to believe them (thus accepting other gospels and "another Jesus") there were still people on earth who were seeking after Jesus, and these people are the church.

And Jesus was right. The true church of Jesus Christ, with the authority given to Peter and all the correct and original doctrines was restored to the earth through Joseph Smith on 6th April 1830. So the gates of hell HAVE NOT prevailed against the church!

The glorious truth is that Jesus spoke truth - His church remains on this earth to this day, despite the centuries of corruption and evil, different gospels and conspiring men. It is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Answer 10

5. The gates of Hell never prevailed against the church. The Church are the followers. Although the priesthood authority was gone there were always true believers in Christ and those people are the church.