Is this where the "perfection" accusation arises from?

Question

It is commonly asked why people (namely atheists) "expect Christians to be perfect". When a person with a massive following and suuport network such as Ted Haggard "allegedly" has a relationship with a male prostitute and also admits to buying meth from the prostitute, he is rightfully berated and people demand he be held accountable for his actions. Instead, he chalks it up to being a born sinner and needing to grow closer to God. Is it too much to ask that a high ranking church member not be involved in a sexual relationships with meth using male prostitutes? Is that what you call "expecting perfection"?

Chieko, we are all judged by each other, right or wrong, like it or not. I don't give a rat's behind if you judge me. The only people's opinions I am concerned about (regarding me) come from the people I am concerned about.
And your two premises are not the same, unless of course your gang member has spent the better part of a lifetime telling others that homosexuality is an abominable act and drug use is wrong. I doubt very much your fictional speaks out against those things, so I think there is rightfully a different expectation.

There's seems to be some misunderstanding of where I am coming from. Sorry if I did not word things clearly. I am an atheist, and almost daily I see a question on here along the lines of, "Why do atheists expect Christians to be perfect?" As I have never seen an atheist actually tell anyone they expect perfection, I was wondering where this idea stems from.

Calm down Dapper. I'm guilty of being a hypocrite at some point in my life, I'm quite certain. That is currently beside the point of the question. Again, in case you missed it (although the rest of your answer was good), I see it posted time and time again on here, "Why do atheists expect Christians to be perfect". Perhaps that is not verbatim, but it is accurate. Christians have posted this many times. I want to know what atheist has said this or why this myth is perpetuated. Most atheists do not say this (none, in fact, that I know of0. Is this simply a perception felt by many people? If so, why are things perceived this way? That gets back to my original story of Mr. Haggard....If I look down upon him for his horrible actions, partly because he looks down upon those actions and tells others to, why is it shrugged off and dismissed by so many who think I am just expecting perfection? Being a homosexual, prostitute hiring, meth-using religious leader is a far cry from

"perfection" in any sense of the word. I do not claim to be perfect, nor will anybody else. That, too, is not the point. These contrived arguments are absolutely awful: "we're all sinners before God", "Judge not lest ye be judged", etc. That's garbage and doesn't excuse anything. Yes, we all have our faults. If you're going to tell me there's no difference between a man spending a lifetime preaching to others that they are an abomination and are committing atrocities, all the while doing these things himself, that there is no difference between that and me being a hypocrite when I say something like you shouldn't call people names, then I call someone a name, if you cannot see a differnece in those two situations I think you have some deep problems. It is not the difference between perceived "perfection" and being a sinner. It is in levels of imperfection that most of us see things.

Sorry for any misspellings or awful run-on sentences!

If all Christians felt the way you do (that they answer to God only), why would they bother posting a question about how atheists judge them? It leads many to think they are concerned and not "just curious." I read your post and liked it. It does not answer my question, mainly, it seems to me, because you are not the type to post such questions, therefore you can't explain why they do.

And I apologise for assuming you weren't perfectly calm. Maybe it was your use of language. Again, my bad.

Point taken. I am glad you are well educated and versed in many aspects of life. That is positive and important. I will not try to talk you out of believing in God. It is none of my business. It only becomes my business when, well, you know the drill. I guess my problem is I see a distinction (and perhaps this is my own bias) in your scenario. Let's say the mother of that wild child is someone who teaches of the evils of parents letting their children do such acts. I think that person is putting themself on a pedestal, knowing full well they are incapable of staying up there. Whereas, say another mother who acknowledges that they have committed some flaws in their parenting and need to do a better job disciplining their child, while not preaching to others how they should raise their children, maybe that mother will not be looked so harshly upon if her child were to go crazy in a store. Neither case has any expectation of perfection (which is what this is all about), but IMO

there are different sets of expectations in the cases, right or wrong.

Answer 1

I see your point, and what really bothers me about the whole religious part is that Atheists don't realise that it isn't the pastor that is really at fault, it is the ones who would place someone into that position and not make sure that this sort of thing wouldn't come about. Whether that is the leadership, an elders board, or some other group within the body - they failed to do their job. This is why spiritual discernment is such an important part of the leadership of a body of believers. What would bother me even more would be if this had been brought up by someone and dismissed.

Having said that, even you aren't perfect, nor am I. It is not perfection any of us seek, it is acceptance. I seek to be accepted by God, you seek to be accepted by men.

EDIT - You may be right in your observation. I haven't looked through your Q & A to see if you have done this, however, when Atheists tell those of religious faith how to follow a God that the Atheists do not believe in, whether expecting perfection or not - Look up the word hypocrisy and tell me which group fits the definition better! If you think hypocrisy doesn't fit Atheists well, try "armchair (or Monday morning) quaterback" instead. Need another good "search term"? Try "Backseat Driver". I have lots of these. None of them have a good connotation. Neither do the actions of those who "seek" to fix the problems of a group from the outside.

EDIT 2 - Just to make that CLEAR, what I mean is worship God, Love Him with all your heart, soul, mind, and body - and then try to follow all of the rules laid down by God AND ATHEISTS.

You can't F@#$ing do it. That is why we can't either. That is what makes you a hypocrite.

EDIT 3 - If I were upset, you'd know it. So would everyone else. And ... my point, which I made damn clear - is that we answer to God alone. So when I see questions like "doesn't it say in the Bible that (insert unbeliever comment here) so why do Christians (insert second unbeliever comment here)" on a regular basis, then the truth is that you (well, maybe not YOU, but ...) are expecting perfection, and sorry to let you know, but if you ask me to do something, you'd damn well better be willing to do it yourself. If not, then I'd say I've found yet another troll to add to the blocked list.

EDIT whatever number - I answered because I thought it was a good question. I also starred it. I want people to see what I believe, and why I believe it. I have a solid foundation. I am a student of science and theology. I LOVE GOD and MY FELLOW MAN - believer OR NOT. And I can't stand the damn trolls (I still love them for the comedy factor). They should get a freakin job or something and stop acting like they know everything. I've been to school for over 20 years and I still don't know it all and never will (but I've forgotten more about science than most of the "evolutionists" will ever know).

Oh, and I'm not ashamed of what I believe, nor why. I am an elder at my church. I had a SIGNIFICANT religious experience about ten years ago. You can *try* and tell me there is no God, but I know different. YES, I said KNOW. Yes, I'm sure. As sure as coffee comes from a bean.

Final Edit -
The thing that kinda gets me going on a rant here (I admit it, but hey - I'm right, so ...) is that I equate this whole business with the following. Walk into a grocery store. Let your kid run wild on some PRE-PLANNED excursions of mayhem that are basically HARMLESS. When someone tells you how to parent your child - that's when you (not your child, sorry - I get a tad excited on this topic) get put in the same place Christians get put into when you try and tell them something about the Bible. It just doesn't (smiling again, cuz I'm sooooo right) f@#$ing work that way. You know it. I know it. Everyone else on this (smiling and talking softly) F@#$ing board knows it.

Well, except maybe the idiot hamster. If there is a maroon, its the hamster.

Final, Last Edit - I fixed all the punctuation (and now grammar/spelling!) errors (and sorry that you can't). Your question is a VERY good one! And yes, different sets of expectations. Being a Christian doesn't give us super powers to do everything that we are commanded to do. Including Mr. Haggard.

Final Edit, The Sequel - I went to some other questions to clear my head of this topic so I could come back and revisit it. The part where you talk about Haggard and his actions when looked at through the glasses of his preaching, I see his actions as hypocritical - this is true. Someone could say the same thing of my language in this post. I'm not going to say that I'm a better person than he - I'm not. What I will say is that I have some criteria on this whole subject. First criteria is what is says in the Book of James, Chapter 2, verse 10; "If you stumble on one point of the law, you are guilty of it all" comes to mind as a very important passage - and very relevant. To some, the thought of a preacher doing meth and having homosexual sex - while preaching against those things - is "beyond" hypocritical I guess is what most are driving at. Hypocrisy and pick your favorite exponent? It doesn't really work that way. Yes, we hold our leaders to a high standard. The Books of I, II Timothy, I, II Thess, and Titus deal specifically with the elders of a body of believers. There are standards / criteria - that must be met. I see the point that is made against him, but that point - when it comes from the outside - is moot. It is "do unto others as you would have done to you" - God's law, and a fine one at that. And to really chap the hide of a lot of Atheists is that according to Christianity, you will be judged equally (by the same rules) as we are. We have grace, because we believe, confess, and repent. And in all honesty, Haggard will be judged by those same standards. Does he truly believe? Did he ever? I don't know where the fellow stands with God. That is his business. And I can't judge him because he has done these things. To be totally honest, I have sympathy for him. I have done things that are still "somewhat" secret and are not in the public eye. His sin is very public. I do not envy his position. And ... when you think about it, through the eyes of a Christian, do you think that IF (IF IF IF) it is true and there is a God, satan, angels and all .... that this guy wouldn't be tempted day in and day out? If he succumbed, then that is another reason to have sympathy for him. Imagine wearing his shoes for ONE mile. So when I am tempted, it is the same thing, and I have to say that is why I don't feel honor bound to use him as a poster child of what is wrong with Christianity.

HOWEVER, I have to say two things. He has an opportunity to get his act together (or at least as well as anyone can) and go out into the world and make a difference. I think we all would agree that meth is some really bad stuff, it causes your brain to actually "decompose" itself into "feel good" chemicals and in the process, eats itself up. I've seen CAT scans of this effect - it isn't a good thing. This guy can make a difference, and if he does, that will make up for what he has done, in a way.
Second, I don't think any man in the pulpit sees himself as perfect. The pastor of my church and I have a great friendship, and he - at times - shows his weaknesses. When he does so, I see him as a man who strives greater than others to serve. It is a testament to his faith, and my emulation of him and his service are a testament to mine. Not tooting my own horn here, just trying to give you the insight you have asked for. Hope I have completed that task!

Oh, one more thing. You ask why I (or another Christian) would answer those questions? I do have a point to make most of the time, and if not, its two at a time my friend, however and whenever. If not for the trolls, I'd probably have only half the points.

Did I miss anything?

Answer 2

I think it all comes down to a strong dependence on God, and therefore, a feeling of irresponsibility for your actions. I don't expect anyone to be perfect, but blaming YOUR drug and sexual addiction on some sort of mindset already borned into you is quite possibly the stupidest thing I've ever heard. No, you can't be perfect, you may lie, or steal something, or even commit "adultery of the eyes" or whatever that's called, but engaging in intercourse with a prostitute and accepting illicit drugs is taking it a little too far. It's NOT that hard to follow the laws of the Bible and the laws of the land, they are almost one in the same, but, honestly, CHILDREN know right from wrong, why should he be let off because of his belief in God and the fact that he's a "natural born sinner." As far as I'm concerned, morality and law are completely secular.

Answer 3

Shows a complete and total lack of discernment on the part of the christian community when they allow people like that to hold such high positions of responsibility. What do you expect from people who think an incestuous drunk is a righteous man or that GOD advocates the murdering of innocent people and animals?

Answer 4

if mr. haggard were some gang member who did all these things, you wouldn't blink before turning the page. wouldn't waste another 2 seconds thinking about it...

the "perfection" argument stems from the reasoning you use to consider mr. haggard to be any different from that gang member. both are sinners and both fall short...way short.

what you own, the color of your skin, and where you stand on sunday morning is all irrelevant to God. we will stand before Him as the sinners that we are...

be disgusted by mr. haggard's hypocrisy, but understand that with the right temptations, you could be him...

Answer 5

No, it is not too much to ask.

I am so sorry that people like this cause some to think that we are ALL like this. We are not all hypocrites. We are not all terrible, immoral people. Most of us work hard, are honest, help others as much as we can, and are genuinely good.


Please do not judge us all by this.

Answer 6

I don't care about ted haggard, he can smoke meth and do the nasty with all the male prostitutes he wishes.  Just show me the god.....

Answer 7

another christian turn around... why is it you can't accept that evolution is the law of nature... because people can't explain the origins of the universe.. evolution exists.. it is christians who condemn others for imperfections and the demons who lead you inspire you to condemn others... as no person is perfect.. we don't go around proclaiming we are .. christians do that.... until you look at your behaviors and the lies you spew from your own lips you won't even come close to being worthy of being called animal let alone human.

Answer 8

I really don't mind if he shags pandas with a needle hanging out of his arm. That's not the point.

The issue is that he did these things while publicly condemning them, and inciting hatred against others.

CD

Answer 9

That type of thing surely doesn't help. But it's the attitude. the "you had better not sin" but "we, of course, are not perfect" thing that 99% of Christians I have ever heard seem to subscribe to. They preach at and about everyone about being "Christ like" but when it comes to themselves they are just "trying to improve".

They can't practice what they preach but they want everyone else to...

Answer 10

Well said. No it is not too much to ask.