Pagan Information Question #14. Do you hate "them" for past persecutions?

Question

I'm talking about the Burning Times here, which can range from 500 AD to the present (depending on the source). Do you hold the Abrahamic Religions totally responsible for the almost total loss of our practices, and ways of life that have forced us to reconstruct everyting, based on snippets and tidbits from here and there? Do not only hold the people who actually committed these atrocities responsible but hold every single member of those groups as being responsible? In other words, do you hate them for what they've done to us over the ages? Do you KNOW that Witches and other Pagans continue to be killed and tortured in THIS day and age. The Burning Times continues even in this day and age in remote parts of the world such as Africa and Southeast Asia. Additionally, there ARE folks, even right here in the U.S. of A. who would like to return to those days of torture and killing in the name of their God? How do you feel about that?

Brightest Blessings,
Raji the Green Witch

Mahal, I HAVE been the recipient of a LOT of persecution. I have had a burning cross in my front yard, had Bible quotes spry painted on my house, garage and vehicle. had my tires slashed, been punched in the face, had my cat hung from a tree, and been threatened with being burned alive in my house by a crowd of angry "Christians". And YES, I know for a fact that it WAS an "organized" Christian mob. I recognized the folks, prosecuted them and THAT is the evidence that came out in the trial. Yet, I don't find that I'm able to HATE them, I simply feel bad for them that they won't ever know the peace that comes with unconditional love and tolerance for other ways of worshipping Deity.

BB,
Raji

Wired and Abriel. here you go http://www.witchvox.com/_x.html?c=whs

Modern age Witch hunts. Browse at your leisure.

BB,
Raji

Oh and http://wicca.timerift.net/burning.shtml
Is a Christian web site refuting everything. The truth lies somewhere in between. NO, not ALL those who were persectuted were Pagans BUT, the intent WAS to stamp it out and ALL of its influences.
I am totally amzed by the folks that have accused me of Llewellynism. LOL. ME, the Champion against Llewicca. LOL *rolling my eyes*. SRW is a 100% fake and is not taken seriously at all by ANY Witch who has practiced for longer than 2 years and I have practiced since 1971 and have been taught my craft from some of the Founding members of Wicca. Yes, it is ALL reconstructionist and mostly modern invention and composition.
No, the number is NOT 9 million executed, it was more likely between 50,00 and 100,000 but STIL a huge number compared to the population of Europe in Medeival times. Add to that number the miliions that were killed in the Americas and Polynesia and you have one hell of a track record yourselves to answer for.

BB,
Raji

Hecate, you're absolutely right. It does take too much energy and NOT the kind of energy that any of us need to be throwing around either. (((Hecate))).

I am so proud of all of us for keeping this in the spirit that it was intended. NOT to hate but to show them that we DON'T hold the acts of the past against anyone. What's in the past is in the past. the present needs to be addressed., including the present day problems between the Religions, however. Civilized folks of ALL Religions need to stand up and condemn the persecutions that are occurring today in Africa and South America. They need to stand up and tell those governments to tear down the "witch Villages" and restore the homes and families of those folks that have had to live there. and punish the folks that killed the ones who refused to move to those places.

BB,
Raji

Answer 1

No I don't hate them, takes up to much energy.

Answer 2

"THe Burning Times" was a colorful term by Gardner to describe the witch trials of the early modern period.

Certianly they really only range from about 1500 to about 1700 (at most). The info on this period of history has been a cultural football kicked around with little good research behind it to stir the emotional pot depending upon what cause you wish to prove.

This to consider:
1)There is no real connection bbetween modern paganism and ancient paganism. There is no reason to be angry about what "they" did to "us" because "Us and them" did not exist in those terms. Certainly early Christians (going back to the 500's AD etc, NOT the 'buring times') persecuted pagans, and pagans persecuted Christians, and Chritians other Christians, and pagans other pagans.

2) The witch trails of that time period were not a persecution of any imagined survival of any pagan religion. They were madness in which some innocent people were wrongly accused and in some cases put to death.

3) Heretical witchcraft (the kind persecuted during the witch trials) was NOT and is NOT the same as ancient or modern pagans beliefs or witchcraft practices.

I list several sources below to help start anyone researching. Some are good factual based sources, otehrs are poor ones, but it is good to get different perspectives.

Answer 3

I see no point in hating anyone.
Yes, Christians once killed pagans but others did too including other pagans. That was another time and my hating wouldn't help anything. All religions change with the times anyway so even if the violence didn't exist in ancient times, the practices wouldn't have stayed stagnant. I'm not aware of any religion in practice today that is remotely close to what it was 1500 years ago.

Yes, violence still occurs all over the world for a variety of reasons. For the most part, I don't like it any more than the next person. But I still don't hate. The country that I live in has laws about violent crimes and I want to see individuals who break those laws punished (regardless of whether they were violent for religious reasons of other reasons). This doesn't mean that I hate them. Simply that I want illegal actions to have consequences.

I am sorry that you have had so much trouble with violence. I have seldom had anyone care what my personal beliefs are--not to mention any violent crimes against me. I would hope that the countries that you mentioned would make or enforce laws against violence--for whatever reason.

I just don't have it in me to hate others--especially people that I've never met. And I couldn't hold everyone in a particular religion responsible for the acts of a few. There are good and bad people that profess various religions. I prefer to judge people on an individual basis.

Answer 4

The quick answer is, NO I do not hate Christians, Jews, or Islam for actions taken hundreds of years ago.

What I do hate is misinformation, lies, and half truths. By the time of the inquisitions (the Burn Time) most of the peoples it the areas where the inquisitions where held where Christian. Polytheistic religions had already slipped quietly away. In Ireland it was a bloodless conversion. In many places old beliefs blended with the new religion that is why so many “Pagan” holy days are celebrated under a different name by Christians. The Christians didn’t steal anything the people of various regions adopted the Christian mythos but continued to practice old ways, that where as much apart of culture as they where religious in nature. In time they melded into what many Christians have today and even these very greatly between cultures.

Your arguments do not hold you when held to the light of history.

Ironically the person (Constantine) given the credit for the Christianization of a large part of Europe was himself a polytheist (A PAGAN), yet he killed and warred with many in the name of Christianity.

Even if you where trained by Gardner himself (unlikely) the founder of Wicca. That does not mean that you could not be given miss information, or propaganda labeled as fact.

Answer 5

I don't think that this way of thinking is the least bit productive at all -- this victim mentality, and this vilifying of Monotheism, especially Christianity. Every religion, culture, race, and group has persecuted some other religion, culture, race, or group at some point in their history. Pagans killed each other. Pagans killed Christians. Christians killed Pagans, Jews, and Muslims. Muslims killed Christians, Jews, Pagans and Hindus. Hindus killed Buddhists. Etc., etc,. etc. Religious persecution continues to this day everywhere, and it will probably be with us for a long time. Every religion in the world is persecuted somewhere in the world, and in turn most religions in the world are responsible for persecuting someone. The Neopagan movement hasn't gotten into this game yet, but give us time, we're still young, and in another hundred years (or less) we may be doing exactly the things that we accuse the Christians of doing all the time.

What we need to do is to let go of the past. Forgive, and move on. Religious persecution is a vicious cycle, and if we keep seeing ourselves as victims of the "evil Christians" then before long we will be justifying the persecution of Christians. Yes, all religions are persecuted, and yes all religions persecute. But someone has to break the cycle. We should be building bridges with people of other religions, not walls. Hate never solved anything, only Love.

Answer 6

Your history is a bit off, paganism wasn't lost due to pagans being tortured and persecuted, as a matter of fact, the pagans were long gone before that kind of thing even went on most of the people burned at the stake as a witch were actually christian. Paganism was simply melded in with Catholicism. Winter Solstice turned into Christmas, the goddess and god turned into the virgin Mary and Jesus. Jesus crucifixion was very pagan like in the fact it was a sacrifice. However, much of what you consider 'pagan' is essentially a brand new religion for the most part. In the biblical days a 'witch' was an alchemist who made poisons. And 'Pagan' Latin for paganus was actually a word that meant country bumpkin. And generally the term for people who were kind of hicks and didn't adopt the new popular religion of the day, Judaism. Not that there religion was much like modern day paganism, it was mainly a string of superstitions tied together by Greek mythos undertones. In later times, 2 or 300 AD, pagan was a term used to group all polytheistic religions. In any case, any pagan religion alive today, is almost brand new and is not any religion that has existed previously.

Answer 7

Dear Raji,

I try not to hate. It ends up harming me as the hater more than the hated. It is corrosive to the health of the soul, and of the source of ultimate happiness. I am mystified at why people kill and torture each other, but the truth is that they have and they do.

I am a Witch, solitary, and I read about the Witch hunts in that very thorough book you recommended. It was horrifying. But no one I know today who is a Chrisitan condones that which was done in the past, and I do not hate "them" for what happened. To do so is a way to fertilize and nurture more hate, when that only leads to more and more hate and violence.

The fact that such horrors still continue to this day is something that we must all condemn, as a SPECIES, collectively, no matter what our beliefs, and end the hate, starting with OURSELVES. If I hate, I am part of the problem. I condemn those who hurt YOU, who burned a cross on your lawn and spray painted your house. Any truly moral person would surely do the same, whatever their beliefs.

I think it is incumbent upon each of us to look to our own souls and our own consciences and say that these crimes that humans commit upon each other must be stopped by the collective morality of ALL those who TOGETHER understand that to peretuate hate is doing NOBODY any good in the long run.

Blessings to you my friend, and thank you for these questions!
Lady Morgana )0(

Answer 8

Well, I'm not the hating type. But I do find religious intolerance terrifying and I'm very cautious as a result. Also - while I'm disgusted that Pagans have been killed in the past it's not like I, personally, was persecuted or tortured, or hung, or burned. So it's kind of hard to hold that against modern Christians (since they weren't the ones who did the burning, hanging, etc...) anyway.

Answer 9

I hold people accountable for their own actions, not the actions of their ancestors and certainly not the fictional actions of their ancestors. (they didn't burn Wiccans, they didn't burn 9 million women, etc.) Nor do I blame organizations such as the Church for something that happened hundreds of years ago, especially considering the causes actually involved. When they burned "witches" they were killing people they believed were causing gross harm through magic (death, maiming, poisoning of fields and livestock, etc). For the time, death was a perfectly acceptable punishment if you did these things through mundane means, so why shouldn't they do the same for magical offenses? It's a shame most of these people were completely innocent, and it's a shame that certain people certainly took advantage of the system (falsely accused neighbors they disliked, etc).

The "Burning Times" doesn't have anything to do with me. Yes, there were pagans who died because they would not convert. I find this no more or less unfortunate than Christians dying for their beliefs. So I guess if I'm going to degrade Christianity for the offensive I'd have to do the same for pagan Rome.

The "Burning Times" (and I really hate that term) is not about me, and it offends me when people talk about how "we" were persecuted. "We" weren't there. For Wiccans and many (but certainly not all) other modern Pagans, people who followed our beliefs weren't even there. This is such a needlessly devisive issue perpetuated by people taking things personally that really aren't personal. Making it about "us" also demeans what happened to the real victims. When you're talking European witch trials, you're talking about real fear and hysteria gripping a community, not some petty persecution of women because the men felt threatened by them (one of the many unhistorical portrayals of the events)

Not everything is about us and our ideals.

Answer 10

The Burning Times were a "wicked" mess. Many who were killed were not even Witches nor Pagans -- their neighbors simply didn't like them (maybe because their businesses were competition, whatever) so they reported them as Witches and *presto* they were taken from their homes. Crazy stuff. However, I can't hate anyone for it, as I'm sure the guilty are long dead now. But I can certainly get pretty outspoken on people today who persecute verbally or otherwise.

I am very sorry to hear about your troubles. I hope they are paying dearly for this. I have had my car egged while in a different neighborhood in a class with my former Crone High Priestess, but they were too cowardly to let me know who did it. (Wise on their part, I have to admit.)

I think it is high time that members of violent, self-serving hate groups portraying themselves as a loving religion were forced to pay for their crimes -- starting with G.W. Bush.

Answer 11

Well personally I have nothing against "Them" since I dont hate anything just dislike and also Since I wasnt There in thoes times(well maybe I was) I Do however have a Problem With burnings/Torturings today...Even if we live in a free country there are still people out there who are "witch hunters" I saw this on the internet a few weeks ago there are probably some where I live since this is a Bible Belt area..It does make me a little mad when they stole holidays that were of our origin and called them their own..have a great day and happy Holidays!


here is the link that shows what modenr day witch trials are like now: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/08/22/world/main1918803.shtml