RE: Catholic Church - Can you answer this?

Question

If you believe (wrongly) that the Catholic Church was not created until a few centuries after Christ's death, then how is it you can find among ancient Christian writings the letters of Pope Clement I, who was Pope and Bishop of Rome from 88 AD to 97 AD ?

In the list of Popes......
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12272b.htm
.. the first four are:

St. Peter (32-67 AD)
St. Linus (67-76 AD)
St. Anacletus (76-88 AD)
St. Clement I (88-97 AD)

So, how can this be if there was no Catholic Church or no Popes until the 4th century?

(Realize this is a rhetoorical question.)

LINKS....
On the Church:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Pillar.asp
On Purgatory (includes lessons in Real Audio):
http://www.fisheaters.com/purgatory.html
On the saints:
http://www.catholic.com/library/mary_saints.asp
On the Pope:
http://www.catholic.com/library/church_papacy.asp

TO "jim j": How did you squeeze so much misinformation and disinformation into one answer?

TO "Underground Man": WRONG. I suggest you read these quotes of the early Christians:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Peter_Successors.asp

Answer 1

Oh I am sure they think we made it all up. History is not well known apparently. This is one of the reasons that for this home school year my sons and I are studying the History of the Catholic Church.

Answer 2

"The Church traces its history to Jesus and the Twelve Apostles, and sees the bishops of the Church as the successors of the Apostles in general, and the Pope as the successor of Saint Peter, leader of the Apostles, in particular. The first known use of the term 'Catholic Church' was in a letter by Ignatius of Antioch in 107, who wrote: 'Where the bishop appears, there let the people be, just as where Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.' "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholicism

"Siricius--December 11, 384 to November 26, 399--First to employ the title Papa (Pope)"

All the other "popes" before this did not actually serve as popes, but were chosen back through history and were martyred for the beliefs they held and the deaths they suffered because of them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Popes

Answer 3

The information you have is incorrect. The four people listed above were never called "pope" when they were alive. Any references to the word "pope" have been added. They were referred to as "bishops" which is another word for Elder or pastor, which were men who were overseers in the individual congregations of the church of Christ.

There are many reasons why Peter was never a pope, they can be found in the source below. Peter was an elder in on the the congregations of the church of Christ as were many of the apostles. He was never referred to as Pope and never placed over any of the other apostles and certainly not placed over the entire church. Christ is the head of the church not a man.

The catholic church CANNOT trace the papal lineage back any further than A.D. 606 when old emperor Phocus, who was himself a murderer and an adulterer, appointed Boniface III as the first pope.

The catholic church has always attempted to rewrite history to justify their papal lineage but that lineage only goes back to the 6th century and through history has been plagued with problems. Did you know that, after the papacy was introduced, there was a period of seventy years in which there was no pope at all? Did you know that for another period of fifty years there were two lines of popes? And did you know that at one time there were three popes? They were Benedict XIII, Gregory XII, the French pope, and John XXIII, the Italian pope. Where does all this leave papal lineage and infallibility?

Answer 4

This question is genuine. Pope Xlll. This great pope, who sought to re-establish the influence of the Church in the contemporary world, encyclical letter, providentissimus deus ( 1893 ).
Pope Pius Xll Modernistic views of the Church,encyclical Spiritus Paraclitus ( 1920.)
Pope Benedict XV also, sorry but that's all i have about the Church. Apparently you have much more info, thank you.

Answer 5

okay, let us not twist things this is where we Catholics get in trouble, with our claims.

The people you list where Bishops of Rome, there were actually 5 "papas" Patriarchs, Popes in the early Church. The Bishop of Rome always held at least Honorary Primacy, being the office of St. Peter, he was considered the FIRST AMONG EQUALS(as the Pope still is among Roman Catholic Bishops) which we can see in the Epistle of Clement I to the other Patriarchs. But the title Pope was not exclusive to them at the time and where the schizm began was if Peter's binding authority and Supremecy were passed to his direct sucessor or if it remained just honorary and the Ecumenical councils of Patriarchs had primacy, but yes they all recognized themselves as part of ONE Church, a catholic Church, with the Bishop of Rome as at least honorary primate.

The office of Pope then was not like it is now. Catholics look like liars when we try to make it so. History is on our side, but do not try to make it more then it was, or actually more then it even is now. Papal Monarchy to this day is still only limited to the Vatican City/State. Outside he is the BISHOP OF ROME, First among EQUALS he has no more priestly authority then any other Bishop. All Bishops inherit Peter's authority but not the seat directly.

EDIT: AND ONCE AGAIN CONSTANTINE DID NOT CONVERT ROME TO CHRISTIANITY! MY WORD PEOPLE HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO SAY THIS IT WAS THADDEUS (THEODOSIUS) IN 375. GEESH! TAKE A HISTORY CLASS!

Answer 6

Mother of All Harlots. Those who fled from Babylon started new religions. Many of them had rejected the true God. They were building the tower! So it is not surprising that these new religions also had some common teachings, even though they were unbiblical. Today we find that many religions use remnants of that old religion.They use holy water, priests in long robes, various sacraments, the avoidance of certain foods, a string of beads used during prayer, priestly absolution, infant baptism, and prayers. In the mystery religions of Rome and Greece, the high priest wore a crown with the title Pontifex Maximus. It is the same title that appeared on the crowns of the Roman Caesars, and the Pope of the Roman Catholic Church which is still in effect today.The Mother of all Harlots.

The Roman Catholic Church, in its pagan form, unofficially came into being in 312 A.D., at the time of the so-called "miraculous conversion" to Christianity of the Roman Emperor Constantine. Although Christianity was not made the official religion of the Roman Empire until the edicts of Theodosius I in 380 and 381 A.D., Constantine, from 312 A.D. until his death in 337, was engaged in the process of simultaneously building pagan temples and Christian churches, and was slowly turning over the reigns of his pagan priesthood to the Bishop of Rome. However, the family of Constantine did not give up the last vestige of his priesthood until after the disintegration of the Roman Empire -- that being the title the emperors bore as heads of the pagan priesthood ,Pontifex Maximus -- a title which the popes would inherit. (The popes also inherited Constantine's titles as the self-appointed civil head of the church - Vicar of Christ and Bishop of Bishops.

Answer 7

Yeah, but the bishop of Rome wasn't recognized as being preeminent among all the major bishops in those early days. And why was it that all the major theological councils of those first centuries happened in the Christian East, being decided in the Christian East and not in Rome or by the bishop of Rome?

Face it, the papacy was something that developed over time in the western half of what was the Roman empire. The Eastern half of Christendom never recognized nor does it still recognize the legitimacy of the pope. And Eastern Christianity is as old as the Roman Catholic Church.

Your page of isolated quotes (all carefully selected from a RC apologetical site. Do you really think that I'm not going to notice that this info is coming straight from a RC Church propaganda site?) doesn't change the fact that the Eastern Orthodox Church has never recognized the pope as being legitimate in that office.

Answer 8

Dare we bring up the fact that there was not even a centralized church in Rome until AFTER Clement? They were scattered about Rome as house churches and others met in Synagogues.

There simply was no Monarchal Bishop until much later.

Answer 9

I think you should make it clear that this question is directed at those on YA who maintain that Christianity was created as a result of instructions from Emperor Constantine in the fourth century. They will probably maintain that the original documents were all forged at some later date. It is amazing how much forging took place in a few years,

Answer 10

That's circular reasoning -- there were Catholic popes before Constantine because we went back and called them popes. There was a "church" (and you don't mention Paul at all); Peter and Paul basically took different paths and went to mostly different areas--but all roads lead back to God. We as Christians must resolve this difference--the important thing is the church, not a Church.

Answer 11

The term Pope was not even in use during the lifetime of Clement of Rome. He may have been the Bishop of Rome, but that does not mean that he was a Pope of the Catholic Church. I could prove by the Bible, that John the Baptist was the first Baptist and that was definitely before Clement, so does that mean the Baptist Church is the true church?