Alright Atheists...let's see that logic?

Question

Atheists are up to their shenanigans again. You know, claiming atheism is the "logical" choice or that atheism is on the rise because people are becoming more "intelligent" and switching to atheism. Well...at times I like to test that little theory. Atheists like to test believers faith...and I like to test athiests claims of "logic" and "intelligence".

So.....

I tell the month of my birthday to "Jim The Atheist".
and the day of my birthday to "Paul the Atheist". Then, I show a set of dates,
and asked Jim and Paul which one is my birthday:

4 Mar, 5 Mar, 8 Mar
4 Jun, 7 Jun
1 Sep, 5 Sep
1 Dec, 2 Dec, 8 Dec

"Jim The Atheist" said, "If I don't know the answer, Paul doesn't know, too."
"Paul the Atheist" said, "At first I really didn't know, but now I know."
"Jim The Atheist" said, "I know, too."

When is my birthday?


Please try to answer before looking at others answers. And show detailed steps of your "logical" thinking.

No serious attempts yet...that is a shame...not doing much for your rep.

Why do people always think I am trying to prove anything about God with these?

I'm just proving that most atheists really don't know much about logic in the first place.

chippy...yep they did talk to each other. But those three sentences is all that was said before they both knew the correct date.

Sweeny...you gave no details. You are wrong though...but would be interested how you came to that conclusion.

elmjunburke: I don't see "Hollies" claiming that they are intelligent soley based on the fact that they are "Hollies". However, I see many atheists make this claim. As you can see...they don't back it up very well.

Seems to be a Jun 4th bandwagon going on.

I'll give you a hint. The month cannot be JUNE or DECEMBER based on Jim's first statement.

So let me get this straight. You don't need this much logic to answer one of man kinds oldest questions?

Isn't that kind of like saying...I have come up with a "theory of everything"...but I can't don't know basic math?

Interestingly enough. The atheists that I see the most that make this "logic" claim...are no where to be seen on this question....lol

Deus Ex Machina: There is plenty of information if you know how to logically sort through it all. There is nothing hidden in the problem...solve with the information that you are given.

Bonger: Since when is "I don't know" the atheists position? From what I understand...that is the agnostics position. Atheists postion is more like, "I know for sure that God does not exist".

Answer 1

1st September.

Can't be the 7th Jun or 2nd Dec because Paul would have the answer straight away. Jim knows this, so it must be the 1st, 4th, 5th or 8th. This means September or March, but Jim doesn't know which. Because Jim doesn't know which, Paul knows it must be 1st September.

Answer 2

I'll admit, I didn't know the answer without first looking at other answers. The problem I had was the wording. "If I don't know the answer, Paul doesn't know, too" should be "If I don't know the answer too, Paul doesn't know." I know this is silly, but it did give me troubles.

After giving the wording some scrutiny, I understand, too (heyuck (imagine the slack jaw)).

Jim is saying that Paul doesn't know (can't know because jim knows it's neither December or June), so that takes out June and December (the only possible months Paul could know that the date is on). Paul perceives that Jim knows this, so now, out of March and September, there is only one date that would give Paul the possibility to know. Since he says he does know, it has to be September first.

It's still my fault, because I should have understood the wording.

It was a good one.

I'll admit, I'm not the smartest or the most logical. I would call myself an agnostic concerning the existence of God, that would be the most logical. I'm leaning more toward atheist, and I'm definitely an atheist concerning the Gods man has created.

Out of curiosity, are you a theist or an agnostic?

Answer 3

OK, I'm going to guess March 5th

I'll be back with an explanation.


OK, as you said, it can not be June or December, based on that fact that those are the only 2 months WITHOUT dates in common.


Shoot, make that 1 September.

Because he says "at first I really didn't know but now I do."

That means he had two choices; one was eliminated. 1 September is the only option left.


Give Icarus the points


PS - your little test would only be fair if you gave it both to Believers and non-believers in a double blind study. But it was fun anyway.




EDIT: "Since when is "I don't know" the atheists position? From what I understand...that is the agnostics position. Atheists postion is more like, "I know for sure that God does not exist"

Searcher, as long as you have been on here, you should know better than this. SOME atheists may say that. But it is not most. Most atheists are quite comfortable with uncertainty.

Why do you think we point out the idea of unicorns? I can not know for sure unicorns do not exist. But I do not believe in them. I am atheist with respect to unicorns.

I can not know for certain that god does not exist, but I do not believe in God. I would say that their is good evidence AGAINST a Christian God.

With that, I am not an agnostic who says the question is unknowable.

Answer 4

the only date that can't be recombined by number or day with another is the only possible answer, according to the logic that you set up. the conversation between Paul and Jim is irrelevant.

It's like asking "how tall is a one legged rooster if his owner can build a doghouse and a half in an hour and a half?"

EDIT: The reciprocal of the "If I don't know, He doesn't either" is "I know and so does he", which is the same as what they both said later. That's what makes the conversation irrelevant. so there is still only one logical date, and it is th only uniqie date unless you introduce additional info, which I fully expect you to do because I have played these games with you people before, and you always do.

Edit: Your grammer sucks. I'm ok with misspellings since this should be a quick response forum, but come on! dont you know the proper use of " " marks and "too" and "either"?
Logic questions have to be meticulouoly phrased and puntuated in order to be valid. Or are you home schooled?

Answer 5

It's June 4th.
(Crap...got beaten to the punch)
Anyway, in order for Jim not to be able to know what day your birthday is out of the selection, knowing only the number, it would have to be a number that would occur more than once. This means that he could not have been told that the birthday's date was on a 7 or a 2 (in that those are the only two numbers that only come up once, and, if it were the number, Jim would know immediately).
And, by ruling out those two dates, Paul, knowing only the month, knows the date. The only way he could know this was by ruling out the dates Dec 2nd and Jun 7th, due to the fact that Jim would know immediately if it were either of these two dates. This means that there is only one option left for June and two for December. And, knowing that he can determine the date by only knowing this and the month, it would have to be the only remaining June date, June 4th.

I like these!

Answer 6

curious - do they get to speak with each other, do they have any way to weed out which ones? or are they in a state where they cant speak to each other?

i love problem solving.

edit: well i'd make a serious attempt but im not understanding the question i guess... do they talk to each other?

but i dont really see how this proves anything. atheists dont need to know this to find contradictions within religion. the two are mutually exclusive, and logically speaking - a contradiction cannot exist as a truth... (that means they have no relation to one another)

edit2: ok ty, i will go ponder for a bit. =]

for the record i am at work so my answer might take some time...

Answer 7

You don't need to know THAT much about logic to be able to identify a crock of sh!t when you see it. True, some atheists may have unfortunately low IQs and be unable to solve your silly little riddles. However, you must not ignore the fact that atheists in general reach their conclusions on religion from a logical approach, while most Christians reach their conclusions on religion from an emotional approach. They may claim to use logic, but a closer look at their reasoning will clearly show logical fallacies. Attempting to find fault or incompetence in the application of logical thought from a couple of atheists will do nothing to discredit atheism, nor will it provide one morsel of support for theism. You are wasting all of our time with your games and puzzles.

Answer 8

Maybe I'm missunderstanding this...'question'.
Won't Jim tell Paul the month and Paul will tell Jim the day and then together, the two of them will know you're birthday?? What the hell is this? Are Paul and Jim not allowed to talk to each other? This sounds like a cult that isolates children.

Answer 9

Asking us to take an I.Q. test still won't prove the existence of your magical sky bully.

EDIT:
Here's a logic test for you... God spoke to you and told you to go on a job interview with my company because you will get the job. Knowing that I am an atheist, and that I can't discriminate because of religion, you tell me during the interview that god said you would get the job. Oddly, you are not hired. How can this be? God said you WOULD get the job!

EDIT:
Hmmm... no answer to my hypothetical? Come on believer, let's see that faith!

EDIT:
So fellow answerers, we can see that when it comes to atheism, obscure problem solving is not paramount. The only logic any of us actually NEED concerning religion is the following:

Unreal things do not exist.

Answer 10

First of all, you never say that any of the dates that you are providing are correct. So it would be impossible for either to say.

Also, you never say whether you told Paul the Atheist the monthly numerical date (1-32), the yearly numerical date (1-365), the day of the week (Sunday-Saturday) or whether you told either of them the specific year by which you are basing your information (this, of course, would only be necessary if you told Paul the Atheist by anything other than the monthly numerical date).

Finally, you never say that Paul doesn't already know the month or that Jim doesn't already know the day. In fact, you never say that one or both of them don't already know your birthday.

But let's assume that one of them IS the correct date and you said as much to them, Paul doesn't already know the month, Jim the Atheist doesn't already know the monthly numerical date of your birthday AND that you told Paul the atheist the monthly numerical date (again, 1-32, as opposed to the many other options). If Paul knows just by looking at the list, then we can obviously exclude any dates with the same numerical value. This leaves us with June 7th or December 2nd.

All right, so Paul says he knows. If, within this list of dates, one is correct, then we can believe Paul. Jim, knowing the month, and assuming that Paul doesn't already know the month, is going to guess either the 7th of June or the 2nd of December, depending on what he was told. By the assumptions in the previous paragraph, we can't know for sure which one it is, but Jim, being privy, would know. Why would he know? Because for Paul to know, there couldn't be any number repetitions. 1, 4, 5 and 8 are all out the window, but if 7 or 2 are the dates, then BOTH the date and month can be known by Paul just be looking for either of those two numbers.

Again, we, the readers, don't know.

Now let's add a few assumptions.

Let's assume that Paul and Jim aren't infallible. Jim fallaciously states that if he doesn't know, then Jim can't possibly know either. We the reader know this to be false, so we ignore it. Next we come to Paul stating that he didn't know at first, but now he does. We can take this to mean two things: 1) it took him a minute to realize that the 2 and the 7 each only occur once, so upon realizing this, he knew the entire date or 2) it WASN'T the 2nd or the 7th. Why would Paul know then? Because at first he only had the date to go by, but then he remembered that he already knew the month. Now he doesn't have to guess, because he already knows.

Jim assumes that Paul doesn't already know the month and having been told that it was June/December (we assume, as both of the other months only have recurring numbers) and knowing that the birthday can only be known by the numerical value if it is not a recurring number, he assumes it's December 2nd/June 7th (depending on the month he was told). So if the numerical date was a recurring number, and Paul already knew the month, Jim would have concluded incorrectly. If Jim was told that it was March or September, then he would have had to have prior knowledge of the numerical date, in which case, his original statement is all the more fallacious, and neither Paul nor Jim could rely on the other to correctly deduce the date (and Jim wouldn't have needed any help anyway.

One more assumption: both are correct and reliably intelligent. They don't have any more knowledge than you gave here and you provided all the possible dates. If it's not possible for Paul to know, then it couldn't be December or June, as each one has a non-recurring number. After realizing this, Paul has to go with September 1st as December 1st has been thrown out. After Paul says he knows, Jim has to go with the only non-recurring number left (minus December and June), which is September 1st. Unfortunately, however, Paul can't be certain that Jim fully understands the ramifications of what he said and vice versa. So this may be incorrect still.

I could go on with more assumptions based on some of the possible information that you may or may not have left out, but I've already spent too long answering and I've been eating lunch, talking and doing working in between. :P

Instead, let's look at it from a classical skeptic's point of view. No assumptions. No preconceived notions. Considering this "logically," there is no way to know. For one thing, Jim seems to be making a fallacious statement in assuming that if he doesn't know, then Paul doesn't know. Paul says he knows, so who is right? Jim or Paul? Can Jim really rely on Paul to understand the relevance of the date he was given, in whatever format it was given? Does Jim even know in which format the day was given to Paul? Do Paul or Jim know what the other one doesn't know (i.e. does Jim know that Paul doesn't already know the month)? Is there any prior knowledge of your birthday? You never say. Is Paul lying? Are either of them even intelligent enough to have a good mental grasp on your "test?" You never say that ALL of the dates that you showed them are listed here. It would seem that your birthday is either December 2nd or June 7th, but with all the missing, unreliable information and the fallibility of the human intellect involved, how can it be known? It can't.

Honestly, I'm disappointed it wasn't possible to solve this. :( I love a good test.

Thanks for trying.