A question for wiccans and trads?

Question

How come wiccans consider themselves trads when they're not? not to be rude or anything but i thought wicca was the rede and karma and the threefold and trads were faith, universe and nature, and spirits. I agree with traditionalwitch.net, but i wanted to see other opinions as well to see if im right or wrong.

Answer 1

Well, there is Traditional Wicca, by which I mean Gardnerian, Alexandrian, Georgian, or any other Wiccan tradition that still has initiations and some kind of lineage -- as opposed to the paper-back-book ecclectic solitary Wicca, which has come to be so popular today. There are other Witchcraft traditions that started around the same time, and may have borrowed some from Gardner, but that use the word "Witchcraft" instead of "Wicca" to distinguish themselves from the more directly Garnder-influenced paths. There are some differences between these traditions and Wicca -- the Rede for example is specifically Wiccan. Doutheism (Goddess and God) tends to be more specifically Wiccan as well. They may also claim to be pre-Gardnerian, and if they are, it isn't by much. Witchcraft as a Religion is a relatively new concept, going back 50 - 100 years at most.

Answer 2

Wiccan "Traditions" are interesting things. Would a Gardnerian Wiccan be able to call themselves a "Traditional" witch in the 1960s when Gardnerian Wicca had only been around for about 10 years? We have more modern styles developed in the 70s and 80s, whether Faery Wicca (as opposed to Feri Wicca which is older) or Eclectic Wicca which are now older than that Gardnerian tradition was in the 60s. So... Trad is a subjective matter.

Answer 3

I've been practicing witchcraft for 30 years and there have been people called 'witch' in my family for most of the last 800 years that I know of, and I've never been part of a so-called 'Non-wiccan'-witch-community...

During the 70s I hung out with "neo-pagans" and I've been friends and/or lumped together along with druids or sorcerers or magicians or Wiccans as part of the "non-mundane/pagan community" throughout the 80' when I wrote for pagan journals and magazines.

But this 'Traditional Witch' label is a new construct... It seems to have developed as a knee-jerk reaction by some people who felt uncomfortable with the abundant formulaic crap being written about witchcraft in books from Llewellyn press and other new age publishers who seem to have little interest in anything except making money or selling books.

As for Wiccans - they have for decades differentiated which version or sect of wiccan beliefs they follow by use of the term "traditions". There are for example Followers of the "Gardner tradition" called Gardnerians or followers of Alex Sanders called AlexSandrians etc. In my experience there are no TRADs in traditional Witchcraft there is simply a catch-all term for us - (mostly used by others to refer to us) -- They just called us "witches" -- They never asked, nor wanted to know what we called ourselves.

So in a nutshell Witches don't call themselves Witches, and if we did there is enough common-use/prior-art to make it impossible for us to get a copyright on the word. So if the wiccans want to call themselves witches, we generally look at them and think "oh good - a decoy"...

Traditions are likewise a word that we do not own - which is why it's not a surprise for Wicca to use it -- think of them as being analogous to the open-source software movement but in a religious frame. There is no reason they should not classify themselves as following a specific "traditional" practice no matter how recent their tradition. And words like conference or sect or congregation have overloaded meanings in common use that many wiccans find disturbing, so why should anyone have a problem with it?

If you actually get to know them you'll find most so-called Witches don't generally follow a tradition - usually witchcraft is about doing whatever needs to be done. Good bad or indifferent and If you are really paying attention, what needs to be done, changes all the time, so by definition it's not going to be "traditional" is it?

As for what is witchcraft and what is ceremonial magic and what is sorcery and what is thaumaturgy and what is ritual and what is this that and the other thing... and what is defined by traditionalwitch.net as chapter and verse - I think you should decide for yourself and stop worrying what -anyone- else thinks. Not even what I just said is worth any more than what you paid for these opinions ... k'?

Answer 4

Traditional means what it says. I am Wiccan, in the sense that I am a British traditional witch. I am an initiate of an initiate of an initiate (... several iterations) of Gerald Gardner, witch. Today, many Gardnerian Wiccan and closely related traditions, use the term British Traditional Wicca (BTW) to describe our spiritual practice.

Certainly there are traditional witchcraft practices other than those of southern England, where Gardner was initiated. Many such traditional witches have chosen, over the last half-century, to share and compare their practices with BTWicca, and have found much more in common than an outside observer would guess.

The neopagan borrowing of the term Wicca instead of Witchcraft muddies the waters for seekers, but does not change facts. The Arte, the Craft, Witchcraft, and Wicca--religio-magical practices, all--have their roots in Britain, in magical practices retained and passed on in both country customs and in Church Latin, low magic and high, enabling British witches of the 20th century to re-unite those long-surviving threads of magic, folklore, religion, and community.

Answer 5

Not to be rude, but if you think that Wiccans don't have faith or aren't concerned with the universe and their place within it, as well as with the Gods... then perhaps you don't know as much about our religion as you think you do. Wicca is a deeply fulfilling and profoundly spiritual path for many: while the Rede is one of the defining characteristics of our religion, it is not the be-all and end-all. Wicca is so very, very much more than just that.

Within Wicca, we refer to our different denominations as Traditions. I don't think it means the same thing that you mean when you employ the same word.

EDITED TO ADD: I just looked over the website you mentioned. Oh, my. It looks like the people who created it probably had one too many run-ins with "fluffy bunnies" and have decided that all Wiccans are like that.

The Rede does NOT forbid us to cause harm; all that it suggests is that all actions that lead to a minimization of harm are acceptable actions FOR WICCANS. Causing no harm whatsoever is impossible. Furthermore, if I am threatened, I feel quite justified in protecting and defending myself in every way possible, including magically.

Not all Wiccans are "OMG u dont follow the Reed so ur EVIL!" or "All witches r Wiccans!" little airheads. ;-)

Answer 6

Honestly, I think it's a bit condescending because most of the Traditionals end up looking down their noses at Wiccans when they're not much different. It makes it seem like Wicca isn't as valid a path or system of practice as Traditional.

By the way you differentiate Wicca and Traditional in your post, Wicca does also encompass faith, universe, nature, and spirits. What you list for Wicca are simply aspects of it, not what it is about.


EDIT: The website comes off quite rude and even in the first small paragraph they state who is not welcome to join:

"Please note this is a site for Traditional Witches so if you are looking for "New Age" Wiccan/Gardnerian 'Traditional' Witchcraft then we are sorry but you are not welcome to join."

What religion or practice right off the bat tells who is and who isn't welcome before they even start explaining what they're about?

Answer 7

I checked out the website and in my opinion, it was just an attempt at trying to create a system of beliefs where seekers who arn't grounded can feel like they belong. I think at some point this person(s) have had a bad experience with Wicca(ns) and they're somehow trying to demean it some how. The constant put down of Wicca was just a turn off. It came across as arrogant and self-centered. I think I'll stay where I'm at.

Answer 8

"Traditional witchcraft" is itself a term not much older than "Wicca" and lots of people debate the meanings of both terms. Just because one website says that "traditional witchcraft" doesn't include Wicca doesn't mean there's a concensus about that.

Personally, I avoid the term "traditional witchcraft" as meaningless. People generally expect it to mean witchcraft as practiced for hundreds of years historically. The problem is people who practices magic before the 20th century didn't call themselves witches and no one considered "witchcraft" to refer to religion or faith until the 20th century. (Anyone who claims to follow a historical religious witchcraft path is flat out wrong about history.)

Moreover, most folk magicians were illiterate, and their practices were practical, not ritualistic. I don't think "traditional" is an appropriate description for the practice. I mean, I learned how to cook from my mother and she learned from her mother. Does that make me a traditional cook?