Can you argue for the existence of God based purely on logic, and NOT by quoting Scripture?

Question

God gave us logic, and he intended for us to use it. Rational deductive reasoning please.

In retrospect that was a poorly worded question, but hey it was late and I was tired. I wasn't asking for 'proof' that God/gods exist, there is no such 'proof.' I simply wanted to here some rational thinking based on common facts about humanity that no one can deny (although I'm sure some do try). For example, taking some common denominators that we all experience as human beings, analyzing them, and following the logic backwards to a common origin (such as the existence of God, but could be something else). This doesn't give us proof, it just gives us more data and a clearer picture with which to work. The point is to use our collective reasoning to see what we can come up with. Two, or better yet 50, minds are better than one. (I added my own input in the answer section.)

I decided not to add my input because it would take 20 pages to get my point across. No one wants to read all that I'm sure :)
To answer Allure45's statement that there is much unnecessary pain in the world....
Whose to say it's unnecessary? When was the last time you saw people truly come together in-mass to for the common good; with the pure, unselfish desire to help another human being? Certainly not when life is going good. No, it's only when pain enters the picture. When catastrophe or disaster strikes, like with 9/11 or Katrina or even a car accident. I think we brought the existence of pain on ourselves; it's the price of free will. Not to mention the fact that we bring all that 'unnecessary' pain on ourselves anyway. God does not 'allow' pain, we allow pain. We have the power to choose not to hurt another human being. We have the power and means to give food to those dying of hunger. Instead we choose to ignore it. Whether you want to admit it or not, it's true.

Answer 1

Can I argue for it? Yes. Can I prove it? Probably not.

The way I see it is this. Our lives are governed by what I call "the sublime question." It is the question of whether or not there is an external will or purpose dictating what our lives should be. In the answer to that question is God. I postulate that there are certain values that are inborn, natural parts of ourselves. These more than just social mores or customs. Where they come from has yet to be understood by science. Religion tends to call the source "God."

In answering the Sublime Question in the affirmative, religious people declare their belief in God. By answering in the negative, atheists declare their disbelief; however, this declaration is premature. I'm not saying that there is any compelling material evidence for the existence of God. What I'm saying is that the Sublime Question is one that is, as of right now, scientifically unapproachable. It is something that cannot be researched or disproved...for now. An atheists answer to the question is also based on assumptions.

Answer 2

I doubt very much you could ever reach such a conclusion by deductive reasoning--the "proof" of God's existence would require inductive reasoning. But that's really just semantics as I know what you are trying to ask.

It's an interesting problem, really, and there's no "proof" to be had. Were I to attempt an argument, I would probably look to the early Universe (e.g. the "big bang") and point out that the theories that have been proposed for that event are full of holes. In fact, the whole theory requires that you believe the universe essentially expanded (not really a "bang" at all) spontaneously at some point in the past from a singularity that had no existence in time and no location in space--because such things didn't exist pre-universe. In other words, all of existence came from what was essentially nothing and nowhere and nowhen. This, to me, seems impossible.

But, does this require that some kind of "God" be the motivating force behind that creative event? Herein lies the problem. A theist would answer yes, an atheist no--and neither can prove their position.

The other problem with your question is that it assumes that "supernatural" things (e.g. God) can be thought of and proven (or disproven) in natural terms. This in itself is contradictory. Stipulating for argument that some kind of "god" exists, why would you assume that any real proof of its existence is possible? If this "god" exists outside the boundaries of nature and natural law (which is what supernatural means), how could natural methods be expected to apply?

Many things exist for which there is no deductive argument. Mostly, these things exist in the realm of ideas (e.g. love, justice, fairness, evil, etc.), but the lack of a deductive argument for (or against, for that matter) their reality has no bearing on that reality.

Good question--it stimulates thinking. But there is no real answer.

Answer 3

Sadie,
Absolutely! I completely agree with you that He did give us rationality for a reason. There are definitely things in life that cannot be explained outside of faith, but my definition of faith is based on reason, and my reason is based on evidence.

My first thought of actually explaining His existence comes out of the fact that there is physically no possible way for the Earth and all life on it to have come together as perfectly without intelligent design. Even one human cell is so intricately designed, that there is just no possible way it could have just been thrown together by chance in a puddle of primordial ooze. Why is the Earth in the only perfect rotation around the sun capable for supporting life? Why is there a perfect mix of ozone for us to breathe? Why is the moon so well-positioned to control the tides, and why are they so predictable? There are a host of other reasons that I could write in this respect.
I can also rationalize it in the fact that I am not alone in this explanation. Many scientists, who are well smarter than I am and also have no connection to believing in God, share this view.

Beyond that, I know that I have had a personal experience with something that was far beyond my understanding or ability. It is powerful and personal. I have a definite relationship with Christ Jesus. I know this because I speak with Him every day, and He tells me things that I never would have gotten from the Bible on my own, yet surprisingly enough, they are always confirmed by the Bible. And surprisingly enough, others who understand a personal relationship with Christ feel the same way.

There is also the fact that many have been murdered for their faith, including eleven of the first twelve apostles. Why would they die for a lie? Though it is stated in the Bible, other history books state that the Jewish leaders bribed the Roman soldiers to say that the apostles stole the body of Jesus. Why weren't the guards killed as Roman custom would have demanded? And would the apostles really take their "delusion" so far as to be killed for it. What good would it do them to promulgate a lie at the cost of their own life? I have a hard time believing they would.

Well, this is my rationale, I hope that it suits your question. Very good question by the way!

Answer 4

Okay, you asked. To think something is logical or illogical, you must have a brain. To have a brain means you also must have a body to go with it, a body that actually has an atomic structure and an actual location somewhere (so far always planet Earth), and there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that thinking beings can be invisible, possess no atomic structure, and somehow live "outside" reality, a place with no actual "location" in reality. The surface of our planet is many things, but it is quite clear that the wind doth not "really" call itself Mariah, Paul Bunyan does not have a giant pet ox named Blue, and we are "not" fleshy mortal puppets being pulled upon by the strings of powers we cannot perceive, we "can" perceive the powers that are sweeping us along, they're called gravity, inertia, etc etc etc,... ...and if there actually "was" a God, and this place and its people were "His" creation, then that God is either a sadistic maniac, a malevolently spoiled child, or a completely bi-polar, obsessive-compulsively insane Being of Monstrous Power with a very twisted sense of humor, a horrible sense of fairness, and a moronic sense of (yes, I'm bringing this all back to your question cuz Imma' genius, pause for effect...) ...Logic. "Gong" :)

Answer 5

The MOA has a couple of defects in Logic .
First and foremost it doesn't define "God" (s) .It presents one possible type of god(s) . Therefore anything that follows is not definative .
You can not argue for the existance of god by a formula ,that only considers one side of a multitude of possibilities .
You can not at this point in time , (sucessfully ) argue for the existance of a god(s) , based only on logic . There either is or there isn't a god(s) . You have to deduce the defininition of this "god"(s) AFTER you have made that determination . Is there necessarily a god(s) [a necessary to our existance god - or other type of god] . If you want to eliminate the "other type of god" as not being responsive to the definition of god in this concept , fine . As long as you do that After you determine if you can you logically argue for the existance of any god(s) . If you define a specific god to prove the existance of through logic that is also fine to do before you start . Let us start with the common "god myth " of an all good and all powerful " creator . No you can not DISprove a PRIMARY creator . But you can not prove that a primary, or even secondary , creator ---> created the Earth . But you can disprove that the Primary creator or any subsequent creator is all good and all powerful . ( Simple logic : There is much unnecessary pain and suffering on Earth . Therefore ...) . So now you are left with a god who may be necessary for our existance ( perhaps like a cosmic fish tank of sorts ) but the proof of any particular god(s) such as a Biblical God , Hindu god(s) , does not follow . It just allows for a god(s) who is not all good or all powerful . The alternative is no god exists . So once again we are down to proof . Is there any non scriptual proof of a "god"(s) ?
One proof is all it would take to tip the arguement undeniably in that direction . But after thousands of years, with thousands of different religious beliefs, we still only have opinion and unsubstiated claims . This is enough to tip the argument undeniably in favor of the concept that there is no god - even a fairly incompetent one . This does not disallow the possibilty that a life form who is superior to us in many ways has created us for a purpose that requires us to suffer for their benefit . Some people may describe those being(s) as "God" . There are those who believe the "Creator" put us here to suffer because we are sinners and our suffering pleases the creator . That is why many religions have used this as a fall back position . This is why Muslims whip themselves with chains as do some Catholics . Or they will walk great distances to holy shrines with out benefit of shoes . This is why Jesus Christ is portrayed as allowing the Jews and Romans to torture him . This is why Islam rewards Suicide bombers . This is why ancient Judism ecouraged human and animal sacrafice . This is why Martin Luther walked in rags hundreds of miles to beg forgiveness of the Pope . AS course a lot of people now a days aren't too thrilled over that type of "God" !

firefly, your answer has many wrong suppositions .
"Why is the Earth in the only perfect rotation around the sun capable for supporting life? Why is there a perfect mix of ozone for us to breathe? "
Two answers : First as you said these things are for "US" ! There could be other life forms on other planets that developed under different or similar conditions . Second : Life developed where it COULD ! You may have mold in your basement , not because god put it there , but because the conditions were right .
"Why is the moon so well-positioned to control the tides, and why are they so predictable? " First of all the orbit of moons and planets make things predictable . So what ! And as far as the contolling of tides ( or being controlled by tides ) this is a function of gravity . So what !
"Even one human cell is so intricately designed, that there is just no possible way it could have just been thrown together by chance in a puddle of primordial ooze. " No one claims that ! Human ( Animal) cells are due to millions upon millions of years of evolution . Probably from a basic retain/release salt/oxgen/water cell .
"I can also rationalize it in the fact ..." was this a typo ? Reread it it does not make sense and disproves you views .
The rest of your response it typical Christian " I know because ... I KNOW ! " Not too much logic there lol .

Answer 6

If you wanted to argue the existence of God from a scientific, "logical" point of view, all you have to do is take a look around you. I don't know why people believe that everything in this world - the oceans, the animals, human beings for that matter... a baby in the womb... all these things came from nothing?? Such a beautiful creation indicates an intelligent designer behind all of this. Also, if there's a debate, it's not a debate unless you use BOTH points of views. That's like trying to say - prove science without any past proofs. You have to back up the belief of God with the the very thing that supports it - which is the written Word, the Scriptures...

Answer 7

-rays are "invisible" since they are a much higher
spectra or frequency of radiated ENERGY than the
visible spectra we can view with the unaided eye.
The bible also gives some similar confirmations to
this basic theme of God being an extremely high frequency
spectra of ENERGY:

* God said he's a consuming fire and ENERGY can easily
consume. For instance, see A-bombs releasing ENERGY
and consuming all the stuff in their path.

* God said "let there be light" at the start of the
universe. Light is ENERGY. God could easily have used
a bit of his own ENERGY to make the universe. Along
this line is the fact that it has been shown that
light can be a sole component in matter formation.
In other words, the bible saying "let there be light"
at the start of the universe creation account, was
quite accurate. Light at the start of it all (big bang)
would both expand out from the source (expanding
universe) and can form matter in the process.

* God said he did WORK to make the universe. WORK is
spent ENERGY.

Answer 8

Science has been trying for thousands of years to find out how life started. I was taught in high school that they think that some magic chemical reaction created life out of a pool of sludge and everything evolved from there. But nobody in the history of science has been able to replicate this (create life from nonliving sources, like they claim happened naturally) and we don't see it occurring in nature. So until someone proves that life can be created from something nonliving by natural causes, the only possibility is that it was created supernaturally.

EDIT: Why the thumb down?? I'm just answering the question with common sense and reason, like it asked!

Answer 9

Which God? A specific one, or just a supreme being in general?

I suppose a generic supreme being's existence could be argued for by the fact that the universe, life and sentient life bothered to exist. Past that, I don't think there's much to be done with logic or reason.

Answer 10

I believe that because of the order of our DNA, our years, our history, unexplained phenomenon like Coral Castle...(old argument) that we are capable of much more than we are currently accomplishing. I believe that the fact that we have the ability to analize and theorize and use philosophy and natural curiosity and want to record what we do and pass it down not just by instinct, that we are a higher divine ruled creation. We have will. We have the ability to stop our natural urges in order to accomplish the betterment of others and to sacrifice for the greater good. We know that what we see and believe are just a spectrum and that there are more planes to discover. We believe in the unseen. We believe in a higher purpose because we actually have followed a higher purpose in many different societal situations. We are dreamers, and we have only touched lightly on our electrical properties. ( if you believe in spontaneous combustion ) We love to create and we have sex simply for pleasure and not just to breed. We have awareness, of mind, of body, and yes of a spirit realm. We have the essence of concience and the depth of love and feelings. If you have cried for no reason, if you have hoped when there was none, if you had an imaginary friend as a child...you tapped into our higher gift of feelings and imagination. So that is my logical argument of the existence of one true God. No matter what name you would like to call it.-Rachel.