Do Christians see a difference between "normal" Christians and the nutcases?

Question

I think we all agree that Fred Phelps and his band of loonies does not represent the Christian faith, but there are a few things that are quite widespread and do tend to rise to that level of lunacy but which people don't seem to be appalled by. I think their lack of outrage comes from just not knowing how big a problem it is.

I the brand of Christianity I'm speaking of usually claims no "denomination" like Baptist, Presbyterian, Catholic, LDS, but they just refer to themselves as "Christians," which makes it hard for people to say how crazy they are because we come off insulting the entire religion, which is not the intent. Sometimes they claim to be Evangelical, but the same problem applies: not all Evangelicals fall into this category. I *think* Pentecostal may be the closest we have, but the same situation may still exist.

(to be continued...)

I researched Matthew Murray yesterday. He is the Colorado shooter, and he posted on a website under the name of nghtmrchld26. I went to the website and read his posts (Please, if you go there, don't disrupt things. These people are trying to heal from far more than just this incident, which is why I'm not giving the name of the site.)

The posts months BEFORE the crazy ramblings about killing Christians (Which is NEVER excusable, so don't think for a second that I'm making excuses for him) are just sad. He posts in a thread about child abuse in Pentecostal families, where people speak of being beaten for not knowing their Bible well enough. He writes about his time with YWAM how he was all set to go on this mission when they said that they felt God didn't want him to go because he was too introverted. Others spoke about the way these mission groups pick on the weak and try to make each other feel bad for not being godly enough.

(to be continued again...)

(primoa, I would be surprised if you fell into the category I'm talking about.)

Last night there was some psychiatrist on TV trying to explain that this group "is a crazy-making" syndicate. They often homeschool their kids not in the interest of education, but in the interest of isolating them from other influences, but those kids for whom this religion doesn't work - the ones who are not feeling the spiritual connection - are told they are evil.

The spurn mental heath treatment and accept voices in the head as either God or demons. They accept incoherent babbling as being moved by the spirit. All of that might be true - I'm not here to bash beliefs - but they never bother to rule out schizophrenia.

After awhile, some of these people just crack - like Andrea Yates and Matthew Murray. It's not that I think all Pentecostals will go shoot people, but I do beilieve that many who do would not have done so had they been immersed in a different culture.

Isn't there a difference?

For the record, although I disagree with them, I consider Baptists to be pretty mainstream. I hope you don't really see your culture in this.

csunhurl, I agree with you. But I don't think we are talking merely about religious doctrine here. Because they carry the word Christian before them, many of us (humanity, not just other Christians) accept that they are endeavoring to be Christlike, but IN THIS GROUP, it is very much the same as bullying. The one constant we see in these young people who just snap and hurt people is bullying. This sect behhaves like a band of bullies, not like what is shown in the book of Matthew. More like what's shown on the NY subway video of those girls.

For instance, according to his posts, Matthew Murray was not allowed to date because there is no Biblical precedent for dating. After age 30, they are meant to have church leaders assist them in courtship. This is NOT Baptist or any other mainstream thing. It's isolationist and abusive.

You know me, everyone agrees on Phelps. What about these other folks? they are far more insidious, I think, just because no one knows about them.

Here's a bit from his last ramblings, as quoted by Yahoo!:

"Like Cho, Eric Harris, Ricky Rodriguez and others, I'm going out to make a stand for the weak and the defenseless this is for all those young people still caught in the Nightmare of Christianity for all those people who've been abused and mistreated and taken advantage of by this evil sick religion Christian America this is YOUR Columbine," the newspaper quoted the post as saying.

Ultimately, [the site moderator] said he believes the ex-Pentecostal forum helped the man, and he doesn't know what more the group could have done to prevent the bloodshed.

Some of youguys need to re-read: I did NOT call Baptists loonies!!

Pam, thank you for responding. I could see how this post might have really raised your ire and I appreciate that you said what you did.

1985, you make some good point, and I should also say that I was once in love with and remain good friends with a non-denominational Christian, so I do understand that not all of you fall into this category.

Fred Phelps is the "church leader" of Westboro Baptist (he *does* claim a denomination, but everyone knows he's a nutter). To give you some idea of his idea of Christian love, their website is godhatesfags.com.

Answer 1

As a "normal" Christian, I'm really offended and upset by the "nutcases". And yes, there is a very big difference. I think of the creeps who interrupt military funerals with their rants. There is absolutely NOTHING Biblical in what they say, and more importantly, in the way they say it. I go to a small church, which is one of the most loving places I could ever choose to worship. My pastor preaches the Bible, but there is NEVER any threatening. He tells it like it is, but you're not left feeling scared, but simply nourished, which is what a good pastor or church should be like. I know of groups which tell their parishioners how to dress. Some of them come up with some pretty un-Biblical, but very man-made standards for their people. That's the best definition of a cult, one that inflicts man-made rules on their "church", and punishes those that don't follow them. Churches like that give good ones a very bad name, and I hate to see all of them be trashed just because of them. They're not all the same, no more than people are all the same. Churches and Christianity are supposed to be all about love, not hatred and fear. If that's been the case for any of you, find a different church - they are NOT all alike.

Answer 2

Christianity is not nutty, but the folks who use it as a neocon political voting block along with the extremist Phelps animals are ruining the "brand." The best way to answer your question is to ask the old standby, "What would Jesus do?" Would Jesus antagonize mourners at a soldier's funeral (I'm a soldier and a biker, and I support the Freedom Riders who provide a human shield between Phelps and his publicity-seeking ilk) or would Jesus attack another country? Would Jesus sell weapons to questionable allies like Saudi Arabia, creaters of the very form of Islam championed by bin Laden? Would Jesus waterboard, or condone it? As a soldier, I understand I may have to take another life, but it should be in defense of my country, my comrades, and most of all, the innocent. Otherwise I'd have some answering to do at the Pearly Gates.

Christians should not be a voting block. The GOP is responsible for making folks like James Dobson, the late Jerry Falwell, and other agents of intolerance powerful. Would Jesus hate someone for being gay, if God created us all? Would Jesus want to destroy an enemy, or make a friend out of a foe? Would Jesus still turn the other cheek, as Christians are taught?

Book of Matthew is the easy answer for me.

Answer 3

I am pentecostal. I think that this individual is really really sad. I have to wonder why no one saw what sad shape this young man was in? I am not excusing him in any way. I think he was bound by satan and should have been set free. What happened? Maybe the mega churches are too big to see to the individual needs of the people. Someone should have felt a burden for him....that's all I can say about it.

I wasn't upset in any way. This is a sincere post and I appreciate that. I understand that pentecostals look a little strange from the outside.lol I don't agree with some of their teachings either. My hair is short and I wear what I want to. I do believe in the power of God to change people though and this man needed help. It really is tragic. It's like he had no one.

Answer 4

The ones that call themselves "Christians" are the ones following the Bible in its entirety.

There are corrupt members of the Church of Christ everywhere, whether they are non-denominational or whether they wear a nice neat little nametag with "Catholic", "Baptist" or whatever.

Just like there are some nice Atheists.

Try not stereotyping people and you won't have such a problem!

Just because one Christian has a bad moment, why blame everyone?

Just cos the Lions blew their chance at beating Dallas, are you going to stop supporting all Michigan teams? Are you going to stop watching the NFL? No. So why tar everyone with the same brush.

A bigot is always a bigot, no matter his religion.

BTW if you want a blog go get one. This is for asking questions. So cough up your 10 points and click on over to blogspot.com and spout your bigotry elsewhere.

Answer 5

First of all, "Pentecostal" is not only a denomination, but a term describing any church that believes in the fullness of the gifts of the Spirit.

I think your question is the absolute perfect example of humanity and society in general wanting to be able to label "groups" or "nationalities" or "denominations" as bad, evil, misled...whatever...instead of discerning the differences between how behavior of individuals or factions compare with the group as a whole.

We cannot be so generalized...groups like Nazis and the KKK are few and far between...unfortunately unlike the evil Phelps organization.

Answer 6

The problem is it's all subjective. I'd like to say "Yeah, I can identify the nutcases"...but I'm sure there's some other Christians who would identify *me* as a nutcase.

Basically my view is that the core tenant and greatest commandment of Christianity is love, and everything else should fall into place after that. Christians like Fred Phelps are clearly missing that mark by a million miles. If you don't think there's outrage then you're dead wrong.

Answer 7

A "Messianic Jew" is someone believes in and follows Jesus Christ as the promised messiah, and at the same time strongly identifies with Judaism and Hebraic cultural practices (which for the most part do not accept Jesus as a messianic figure). A "Christian" is any other believer/ follower of Jesus, one with little or no Jewish background.

Answer 8

I am one of those who claims no denomination. I do so because there are things that I disagree with or am not comfortable with in the denominations that exist. One of the main things that I disagree with is that denominations are polarizing people who should all be joyously loving, serving, and worshipping the Lord as members of his family, instead of being separated by denominational dictates and practices.

The other reason is because no where in God's word is it found that a believer must subscribe to a particular denomination.

Questions such as whose is the right one, why are there so many, etc. wouldn't even come up if the body of Christ was indeed 'a body' of believers.

I did not choose 'no religious affiliation' to keep from being labeled as crazy--people say things like that about Christians all of the time.

And as for those who don't believe in Jesus, what difference does it make what I choose to do about my own spirituality? God hasn't had a problem with me.

Do I really need to claim to be part of a specific denomination to not be crazy, or to be easily identifiable? I am a Christian, one who believes in Jesus. That should be enough to identify me. Those who don't believe are identified by their stance, without having to belong to a specific categorization of atheists or agnostics, etc.

Since I don't live in a vacuum, those who know me as 'a Christian' and not as a "Baptist, Presbyterian, Catholic, LDS (what is that?)" would still know if I were crazy or not.

You sort of confirm my point, when you say that you would "come off insulting the entire religion which is not the intent". Because Christians are divided along denominational lines, it is very easy for other denominations to say "Oh, they are talking about those (enter denomination here), not us. You know how they are".

What do you define as crazy, anyway? Is the only criteria for being crazy to not be affiliated with a particular denomination? Or are there just certain denominations you are trying to not insult? Would it help you to know that my extended family is overrun with denominations, and that was one of the reasons I eventually reached the conclusions that I did?

Are you aware that not everyone who calls themselves a Christian, no matter how public their platform, really is? There is a way to tell who is a 'real' Christian, and who may be talking the talk..

Matthew 7:20-23 (KJV) Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. (The fruit mentioned in verse 20, can be found in Galatians 5:22-23, and should be evident, to some degree in every Christian's life.)

I don't know who this Fred Phelps is, but I sincerely hope that he realizes that choosing a denomination might keep him from being labeled a nutcase.

Hope I helped. God bless you. †

Answer 9

Grace unto you, and peace,
from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

If told many shall come to deceive, and said many shall also deceive many, then it should be no wonder many are deceived, even among the so-called professing Christians.

If told false Christs shall arise to deceive, then it should be no wonder there are false Christians, and ministers thereof who are more like ministers of Satan(Law) than ministers of Christ: is the end of the law.

I think the biblical objective of such an allegoric mystery is to navigate the matrix without being deceived by either many, and from such turn away to go on unto perfection in Matthew 5:48, which is also merciful in Luke 6:35; Which only grace void of law is.

For Lawed-grace is not merciful, but it is bitter-sweet when sweet Jesus is swallowed & followed to sacrifice, which is what God will not have, not then, not now, not ever.

So converted Peter says the God of all grace make you perfect, and stablished and settled. For Christ is seated higher than the heavens, which denotes the law vs grace matter is eternallly settled. Grace prevailed. Awareness of it remains.

Furthermore, "holiness with sobriety" seems to be further testing of faith, to see if you all can do the end "run" through Revelation, along with patience, when seeing we also are compassed about, and make it to the end written alive unto God, and do it without taking another drink of deadly law.

For playing "your part" of their part vs your part, seems to involve glorifying God, and making him on the contrary part ashamed; Yet doing it without making yourself ashamed in the process... kinda like pure religion arrived undefiled and remained unspotted. For anything less than never fail, is a fail-u-are. Wrong...try again, till you get it: understanding = grace glory (Solomon: Proverbs 4).

The GRACE of our Lord Jesus Christ with you all. Amen.

Answer 10

I don't even know who Fred Phelps is. I am a Christian. A Southern Baptist.

You forgot about Mary Winkler, the pastor's wife who shot and killed him because he abused her. There are many days that I, even as a Christian, could sympathize with her. We all have bad days now and then. Not just Christians, but everyone.