Jehovah's Witnesses, can you provide all scriptural support that Christ's ransom doesn't include Adam

Question

JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES' ANSWERS ONLY PLEASE.

Provide all scriptural evidence that Jesus' sacrifice does not include Adam or Eve.

All non-JWs wanting to respond please be patient for a link I'll provide for your responses. It will be a parallel question. Thank you.

Non-JWs please respond here: http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=AjZv48oaLjF2iUXNJFxwQKbsy6IX;_ylv=3?qid=20071211090411AA3eopn

Jehovah's Witnesses you can go here to see the responses as well, but please refrain from answering on the page.

So far, they all told me what happened, then they gave me their thoughts on why Adam and Eve can't be saved. Did they give any SCRIPTURAL SUPPORT? All they gave was talk. As you can see, they each pull information from the exact same source. Their sin is no different. We know the truth but do we sin? The only scripture someone tried giving about Adam and Eve not able of being saved was Hebrews 10:26.
There are problems with this verse as "support" for this belief:
1.) It says "keep on sinning". We only see one sin of Adam.
2.) It uses the word "we". This wouldn't just apply to Adam and Eve only, but anyone.
3.) Adam nor Eve ate from "The Knowledge of Good and Evil" -- therefore they didn't have such knowledge.

So far the only verse as "support" is not support.

They were told they would die because sin brings death. We die, does that mean we can't be saved? They would "return to dust" (over 800 years later) because that's what decaying bodies do.

1 Tim. 2:14 calls EVE the transgressor (sinner) not Adam. Although Eve was decieved, Adam was with her when the serpent was talking to her. If Eve could convince Adam to eat the fruit, surely the serpent could've done it as well. Both Adam AND Eve knew what God said.

Although not all men WILL be saved, that doesn't mean all men CAN'T be saved. We don't know if Adam and Eve gave sacrifices (though they did live more than 800 years). Were they saved? We don't know; but that doesn't mean they COULDN'T be saved. If Adam and Eve asked for forgiveness would God have forgave them? Isn't there only one unforgivable sin? What if Adam and Eve DID ask for forgiveness? Were they unable to recieve forgiveness?

Hebrews 8:11 "And they shall not teach, each one his neighbor and each one his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest."

There's no scriptural support that Adam and Eve got saved; but there's also no support that they weren't saved. Looking at the context of the Bible, there's more support that they ARE able to recieve salvation rather than not.
Salvation is FOR ALL; will all BE saved? No, but it is FOR ALL. Anyone CAN be saved, but "WILL they" is a different question.
God is a merciful and forgiving God. If God KNEW they were going to fall, why would he have made them without a plan of salvation? That's quite cruel if you ask me.

“You must take no ransom for the soul of a murderer who is deserving to die.” (Numbers 35:31)
---First of all, Adam didn't murder anyone. At the time of his fall, he had no children. Adam never murdered anybody. Cain did, does that mean he isn't included in Christ's ransom? If you think this verse applies to Adam, then this verse could also apply to Moses, David, etc. God told Adam he would die, so who or what is killing Adam? Whatever is killing Adam is killing his children as well. Could it be sin? So is sin the murderer?
Second of all, the "ransom" in this verse doesn't mean Christ's ransom.

Answer 1

"...all..."?

It seems best to simply refer to the publications of Jehovah's Witnesses regarding their official explanation of this matter.

Consider page 13 of The Watchtower, February 15, 1991
[quote]
By voluntarily sacrificing his life, this “last Adam” could pay the wage for the sin of the “first man Adam.”—1 Corinthians 15:45; Romans 6:23. Neither Adam nor Eve, however, benefit from the ransom. The Mosaic Law contained this principle: “You must take no ransom for the soul of a murderer who is deserving to die.” (Numbers 35:31) Adam was not deceived, so his sin was willful, deliberate. (1 Timothy 2:14) It amounted to the murder of his offspring, for they now inherited his imperfection, thus coming under sentence of death. Clearly, Adam deserved to die, for as a perfect man, he had willfully chosen to disobey God’s law. It would have been contrary to Jehovah’s righteous principles for him to apply the ransom in Adam’s behalf. Paying the wage for Adam’s sin, however, does provide for the nullifying of the death sentence upon Adam’s offspring! (Romans 5:16) In a legal sense, the destructive power of sin is cut off right at its source. The ransomer ‘tastes death for every man,’ bearing the consequences of sin for all of Adam’s children.—Hebrews 2:9; 2 Corinthians 5:21; 1 Peter 2:24. To illustrate: Imagine a large factory with hundreds of employees. A dishonest factory manager bankrupts the business; the factory closes its doors. Hundreds are now out of work and unable to pay their bills. Their marriage mates, children, and, yes, creditors all suffer because of that one man’s corruption! Then along comes a wealthy benefactor who pays off the company’s debt and reopens the factory. The cancellation of that one debt, in turn, brings full relief to the many employees, their families, and the creditors. But does the original manager get to share in the new prosperity? No, he is in prison and thus permanently out of his job! Similarly, the cancellation of Adam’s one debt brings benefits to millions of his descendants—but not to Adam.
[unquote]

Learn more:
http://watchtower.org/e/lmn/index.htm?article=article_08.htm

Answer 2

Adam and Eve were not under the Mosaic legal system, however, this provision of the Law reveals Jehovah’s legal mind on the matter of headship.

“But if her husband on the day of hearing it forbids her, he has also annulled her vow that was upon her or the thoughtless promise of her lips that she bound upon her soul, and Jehovah will forgive her.”

Since Adam was Eve’s head it is quite possible that if he would have resisted the temptation to join his wife in eating the forbidden fruit he could have annulled Eve’s thoughtless act and Jehovah may have forgiven her. That makes Adam’s failure to adhere to God’s law all the more reprehensible and tragic. It also helps us to appreciate why Paul said that sin entered the world through the man.

As for the ransom applying to Adam and Eve the Mosaic Law also sheds light upon that question as well. The 35th chapter of Numbers outlines the provision for cities of refuge for unintentional manslayers.

However, the Law stipulated that a willful murderer was to be put to death without fail. There was no refuge for him. Likewise, the Law required that the negligent owner of a goring bull, who knew that the bull was dangerous but did nothing and someone was fatally gored as a consequence, was to be put to death. He could not pay any sort of monetary ransom for his neglect.

That legal principle certainly applies to Adam. By his neglect to obey the command of God he became a willful murderer of the then unborn. He sold not only himself into slavery to sin and death but also the billions of his unborn offspring. Just as the willful murderer could not pay any ransom or find refuge in the city of refuge, so too Adam had to pay the price for his willful disobedience.

In accord with the Law, which was a shadow of the reality of Christ, Jesus’ ransom must only apply to those who were unwillingly sold into death and who are unintentional sinners—not to Adam and Eve who had the choice of life and death, but who chose sin and death.

Answer 3

They were the first people on the earth, and received the sin nature after the Fall. I don't see any reason to single them out, one way or another. Scripture: Romans 5:12 and following; and the verse (don't have it handy) stating that as in Adam all die, so in Christ shall all be made alive. Christ died for all, excluding no one.

Answer 4

EDITED :

You said “Their sin is no different.”
Adam and Eve’s sin is different. It caused death to all their offsprings. No one in their offspring can get back to the way of life that Adam and Eve have enjoyed before sinning. Notice there are no offsprings right now who can live thousands of years.

But Jesus was sent so that cycle of death can be broken. Adam’s sinning is part of the works of Satan, which Jesus will destroy. 1 John 3:8.

Adam and Eve have the knowledge of good, that is by obeying God, they and their offspring would not die if they kept on being obedient to God and not eat from the forbidden fruit. They have that knowledge. But they want to experience the bad as well and were fooled by Satan.

God has already judged Adam and Eve that’s why they were thrown out of paradise. Did they actually repent? Notice how Adam and Eve pointed at others for their own sins (Adam to Eve, Eve to Satan) without taking any personal accountability) Gen 3:11-13. Unlike other faithful followers of God, the Bible tells us that they repented. See David and Peter’s example. So the Bible does state when one of its faithful followers repent, which Adam and Eve did not. Notice Hebrews 11 stated that the first person who was faithful was Abel. And not his parents. The point here is if Adam and Eve asked for forgiveness, the Bible should have stated those and they should be the first ones to be stated in Hebrews 11.

Yes, Salvation is given for All Sorts of Men but not everybody is qualified for that salvation.




Heb 10:26 states

For if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left, 27 but [there is] a certain fearful expectation of judgment and [there is] a fiery jealousy that is going to consume those in opposition.


Did the Bible says that Adam and Eve repent because of their great sins? No. Did they receive accurate knowledge of the truth? Yes. Did they willfully disobey God ? Yes.

Those who didn’t repent and willfully disobey God will not be resurrected. The Bible did not promise Adam and Eve that they will be resurrected. What God said to them only was that they will return to dust. No other promise of them going back to life.


Titus 2:11 states “11 For the undeserved kindness of God which brings salvation to all sorts of men has been manifested, 12 instructing us to repudiate ungodliness and worldly desires and to live with soundness of mind and righteousness and godly devotion amid this present system of things,”


Some other versions say “ALL MEN” but that is not right. If salvation is for ALL MEN with no exception then all WICKED men will be saved, which conflicts with the Bible that says all wicked ones will be destroyed.

The greek word for ALL in Titus 12 is PAS.

See how Thayer defines this :

collectively
a.some of all types
... "the whole world has gone after him" Did all the world go afterChrist? "then went all Judea, and were baptized of him in Jordan."Was all Judea, or all Jerusalem, baptized in Jordan? "Ye are of God,little children", and the whole world lieth in the wicked one". Doesthe whole world there mean everybody? The words "world" and "all" areused in some seven or eight senses in Scripture, and it is veryrarely the "all" means all persons, taken individually. The words aregenerally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sorts-- some Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, and has notrestricted His redemption to either Jew or Gentile ...

ALL Men are given a chance, but NOT ALL MEN responded and qualified to God’s gift.
God gave us a gift, salvation, but if we don’t take care of that gift, we can LOSE IT.

Not ALL MEN will be saved, it is ALL SORTS (some of all types) of MEN. And those who will be saved are the ones that exercised faith in the Seed (Jesus). John 3:16

Answer 5

***The man who could be the ransom had to be a perfect human of flesh and blood—the exact equal of Adam. (Romans 5:14) A spirit creature or a “God-man” would not balance the scales of justice. Only a perfect human, someone not under the Adamic death sentence, could offer “a corresponding ransom,” one corresponding perfectly to Adam. (1 Timothy 2:6) By voluntarily sacrificing his life, this “last Adam” could pay the wage for the sin of the “first man Adam.”—1 Corinthians 15:45; Romans 6:23.

13 Neither Adam nor Eve, however, benefit from the ransom. The Mosaic Law contained this principle: “You must take no ransom for the soul of a murderer who is deserving to die.” (Numbers 35:31) Adam was not deceived, so his sin was willful, deliberate. (1 Timothy 2:14) It amounted to the murder of his offspring, for they now inherited his imperfection, thus coming under sentence of death. Clearly, Adam deserved to die, for as a perfect man, he had willfully chosen to disobey God’s law. It would have been contrary to Jehovah’s righteous principles for him to apply the ransom in Adam’s behalf. Paying the wage for Adam’s sin, however, does provide for the nullifying of the death sentence upon Adam’s offspring! (Romans 5:16) In a legal sense, the destructive power of sin is cut off right at its source. The ransomer ‘tastes death for every man,’ bearing the consequences of sin for all of Adam’s children.—Hebrews 2:9; 2 Corinthians 5:21; 1 Peter 2:24.

14 To illustrate: Imagine a large factory with hundreds of employees. A dishonest factory manager bankrupts the business; the factory closes its doors. Hundreds are now out of work and unable to pay their bills. Their marriage mates, children, and, yes, creditors all suffer because of that one man’s corruption! Then along comes a wealthy benefactor who pays off the company’s debt and reopens the factory. The cancellation of that one debt, in turn, brings full relief to the many employees, their families, and the creditors. But does the original manager get to share in the new prosperity? No, he is in prison and thus permanently out of his job! Similarly, the cancellation of Adam’s one debt brings benefits to millions of his descendants—but not to Adam.

Answer 6

God said they would die if they disobeyed him. So why would God bring them back to life again? That would make no sense.
They were perfect humans who chose to sin they had no excuse. It was not like they were starving. Every tree in the Garden they had but that was not enough they wanted the fruit of the one forbidden tree.

Answer 7

Sadly, the first human couple chose to disobey Jehovah. Speaking through a serpent, Satan asked Eve: “Is it really so that God said you must not eat from every tree of the garden?” Eve replied: “Of the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat. But as for eating of the fruit of the tree that is in the middle of the garden, God has said, ‘You must not eat from it, no, you must not touch it that you do not die.’”—Genesis 3:1-3.

11 “You positively will not die,” said Satan. “God knows that in the very day of your eating from it your eyes are bound to be opened and you are bound to be like God, knowing good and bad.” (Genesis 3:4, 5) Satan wanted Eve to believe that she would benefit by eating the forbidden fruit. According to him, she could decide for herself what was right and what was wrong; she could do what she wanted. Satan also charged that Jehovah had lied about the consequences of eating the fruit. Eve believed Satan. So she picked some of the fruit and ate it. She then gave some to her husband, and he too ate some of it. They did not act in ignorance. They knew that they were doing exactly what God had told them not to do. By eating the fruit, they deliberately disobeyed a simple and reasonable command. They showed contempt for their heavenly Father and his authority. Such disrespect for their loving Creator was inexcusable!

12 To illustrate: How would you feel if you raised and cared for a son or a daughter who then disobeyed you in a way that showed that he or she had no respect or love for you? That would cause you much heartache. Imagine, then, how hurt Jehovah must have felt when both Adam and Eve took a course of opposition to him.

13 Jehovah had no reason to sustain disobedient Adam and Eve forever. They died, just as he had said they would. Adam and Eve ceased to exist. They did not pass on to the spirit realm. We know this because of what Jehovah said to Adam after confronting him with his disobedience. God said: “You [will] return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.” (Genesis 3:19) God had made Adam from the dust of the ground. (Genesis 2:7) Before that, Adam did not exist. Therefore, when Jehovah said that Adam would return to the dust, He meant that Adam would return to a state of nonexistence. Adam would be as lifeless as the dust from which he was made.

14 Adam and Eve could have been alive today, but they died because they chose to disobey God and thus sinned. The reason we die is that Adam’s sinful condition as well as death was passed on to all of his descendants. (Romans 5:12) That sin is like a terrible inherited disease from which no one can escape. Its consequence, death, is a curse. Death is an enemy, not a friend. (1 Corinthians 15:26) How grateful we can be that Jehovah provided the ransom to rescue us from this dreadful enemy

Answer 8

You cannot provide evidence from a fictional book for something that didn't happen (when i say didn't happen, I mean irrespective of any beliefs).


Logic:
You're not doing it right.

Answer 9

Because JW doesn't believe in those things. I'm sorry JW is not a religion. Its a cult. They are so good in brainwashing people to believe those tricky things in the scripture compare with other religions.

Answer 10

it doesn't include them either,quit looking for the Christ among the dead.