St. Augustine wrote: "The martyrs are perfected in righteousness, and they earned perfection through their martyrdom. For them the church does not pray: for the other departed faithful she prays, but not for martyrs. They have gone out of this world so perfected that instead of being our clients, they are our advocates."
My question to you is this: If the victims of the Colorado church shootings died specifically for their Christian faith, do St. Augustine's words apply to them, even though they are evangelical Protestants? Would they now be our advocates--people a Catholic might conceivably want to pray to?
If not, could you explain to me more clearly how this works? Thanks. =)
2007-12-10 16:33:19 · 6 answers · asked by Anonymous Lutheran 6 in Society & Culture ➔ Religion & Spirituality
Dionysius, I agree with you that they would actually need to be martyrs, not merely murder victims who happen to be Christians. On the other hand, the Church seems to use the term farily generously. St. Maria Goretti is considered a martyr because she died resisting rape. I'm not disputing her status as a martyr--I happen to agree with it. Nevertheless, it does seem that any murder victim who dies specifically for refusing to sin, is a martyr; and that's a pretty big umbrella.
PaulCyp: Are we not all baptized with the same baptism? There is no semi-baptism: either the sacrament was validly administered or it was not. It seems to me that a Christian martyr is a Christian martyr, regardless of whether he was in full communion with the Church prior to his death.
2007-12-10 17:05:36 · update #1
Good question. The motivation of the shooter, by all reports, was not only that he had been tossed out of the school a few years back but also that he "hated Christians". If this was true; if the people he shot were believers in Christ; and if his intention was specifically to kill them because of this; then I think a case could be made for their martyrdom (if not formal canonization, of course) just as I believe the young girl at Columbine who answered "yes" to the gunman's question "do you believe in God?" and was summarily shot was martyred. In fact, hers is more clearly martyrdom because she was confronted directly about her faith.
Having said that, Augustine wrote in a time when the church was the Church. The wide splintering of Christianity that followed the Reformation was not something he could have even remotely anticipated. Nevertheless, I'm not about to imply that only Catholics have a shot at either sainthood or legitimate martyrdom. If the Church can acknowledge that other Christian denominations have at least the basic truth of the Gospel, then it can surely allow for the possibility that they can be martyrs for it.
Too much hair-splitting here is unseemly, really. A Catholic would not feel completely comfortable asking for the intercession of other than beatified or canonized saints, but that does not rule out Christian martyrs such as these being our advocates. I happen to think that the Columbine girl and many other non-Catholic martyrs -- such as the missionary Jim Elliott -- may well be, also. But this is just my own opinion.
2007-12-10 17:09:05 · answer #1 · answered by Anonymous · 2⤊ 0⤋
True martyrs are true martyrs for christ whether they were in full communion with the catholic Church before they died or not. The Martyrs of Uganda, observed on the RC liturgical calendar, inc luded Evangelical Anglican Protestants as well as Catholics.
I ask everybody to pray for me and I would ask Protestant and other saints and martyrs in heaven to pray fore me also.
2007-12-11 12:10:55 · answer #2 · answered by James O 7 · 1⤊ 0⤋
As a Catholic, I am sure that many evangelical Protestants in recent history have won by their deaths the glorious crown of martyrdom as witnesses to Christ.
With the rest of the country, I join with fellow Christians in grieving over the loss of these good and upstanding young men and women, and the sorrow that has been caused to their families. I commend their souls to the mercy of God, as I hope He will be merciful to me one day when my time comes.
As for questions of God's disposition of specific souls, including those of my own departed loved ones (parents, friends, etc.), as I am to refrain from judging others badly, I am also to refrain from "judging well." Instead, Catholics are to leave all that completely in His hands.
(For the martyr you mentioned, Saint Maria Goretti (1890 - 1902), the process for canonization broke all speed records, culminating in a successful outcome in just under a half-century (1950), one of the swiftest in the history of the Catholic Church. I understand the process is rather like that of the trial of a case in federal court, with much investigation, reviewing of evidence, and back-and-forth debate, before the actual decree of canonization is decided on, even in so "open and shut" a case as Maria's.)
2007-12-11 11:49:49 · answer #3 · answered by Catherine V. 3 · 0⤊ 0⤋
St. Augustine's words pertained to martyrs for the true Christian faith, not martyrs for a manmade tradition that stands in direct opposition to the stated will of God, "that they all may be one". These folks may indeed be saints, if they lived according to God's will to the best of their ability given the semi-Christian tradition they have accepted. But obviously they cannot be considered canonized saints of the true Christian Church when they are not even members of it.
2007-12-11 00:41:38 · answer #4 · answered by PaulCyp 7 · 0⤊ 1⤋
that's church double talk.... the story of Jesus works well in explaining this... the man is a martyr because he was murdered before exposing the religions as frauds... you could see in the story we hear of his life... he was correcting the religious leaders... sitting with those called sinners.. collecting his information to condemn religion and exposing the lie of god... he was murdered before he could do that... if you look at early martyrs they opposed the catholic church... it is the same when talking about eternal life... they the catholic leaders honestly believed they found a weakness in nature that would enable them to live for an eternity... they preached it among themselves some were even told they could be brought back to life.. and when they could not produce this "miracle" they began saying we will store you in heaven and then we will all return... but that is a lie... for there is no life after death.. and nature recycles the energy of life... King Tut is the recipient of ever lasting life... it's never what they expect.. he no longer even has the skin or sufficient tissue to live with... this is where science would have come in handy... the laws of nature are stronger than the foolishness of humanity.
2007-12-11 04:00:07 · answer #5 · answered by Gyspy 4 · 0⤊ 2⤋
Interesting question. I am not a RC so I will refrain from answering though.
2007-12-11 01:35:38 · answer #6 · answered by Anonymous · 0⤊ 0⤋