The apostles and the Catholic church?

Question

I keep seeing on here that the Catholic church is apostolic and follows the teachings of the apostles. Now I may not know a lot about church history so it could be I am wrong. But as far as I know every single thing taught by the apostles is in the Bible. I know Catholics say the apostles taught their doctrines so I am asking a Catholic to show me where Paul or any of the original apostles taught anything that is not contained in the Bible. Show me where Paul taught papal infallibility or that Mary was sinless. Show me where Peter claimed to be the Pope. I challenge you to show me something that we know was taught by an apostle and is not found in the Bible. Can you do it?

cristoiglesia - You didn't answer my question because you can't. However I will answer yours. We are told all scripture is given by God. There is no similar verse for "sacred" tradition. In addition it says scripture will furnish us unto all good works. Seems to me this says the Bible teaches us everything we need to know in order to do all good works.

2Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Cathy - as a matter of fact I have heard of the Didache and have read it. It is almost universally dated to the second century although some say it may even be from as late as the 4th century. Thus I think you may have trouble saying the apostles wrote it.

Cathy - you are right I grabbed that from wiki as it was the easiest source but I have found it elsewhere as well. A link for you that states a possibility of the 4th century.

http://www.earlychurch.org.uk/article_didache.html


In addition it has been a bit since I read the didache but I do not recall any pope, papal infallibility, assumption of Mary, sinlessness of Mary, or anything like that in it.

civilwarbuffy - You are right he has answered before but he has never shown any evidence in the least. Seriously if Paul taught about papal infallibility just show me where it is. It should be simple.

LineDancer - I have proven to you time and again the trinity. Just because you refuse to accept it does not mean it is there. As to my profile there is nothing in it. I use this account to answer questions with and sometimes to play cards.

Cathy - and we are still at that original argument. Does the Didache teach anything, any concept, that is not in the Bible? If so then we would still know just as much by just studying the Bible no Didache needed. What I am looking for is something you can prove the apostles taught that is not taught in the Bible.

Answer 1

No, all the teachings of the Twelve Apostles are not in the Bible Never heard of the Didache (teachings of the Twelve Apostles) did you?

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/didache-roberts.html

Challenge complete.

I could answer your questions but it is far to long to put here. If you want email me one question at a time and I will answer as I have time. But something tells me you don't really want any.

Note: 2 Timothy say ALL Scripture is given to us to learn from. ALL Scripture is not contained within the Bible (not even close), there are thousand and thousands of written Scriptures, the Bible is an extrememly limited number of them, not them in their totality. NOR does that statement say ALL scripture is written.

EDIT II: nope you got that from wikipedia (matter of fact the wording is exact), which has the dating inaccurate the Didache is dated 60 to 120 BCE. AND the Apostles hardly wrote the Bible. Not a single book in the bible can be attributed to an Apostle. (unless you fall for the John the Apostle was the same as John the Evangelist argument). It is actually more attributive to the direct teachings of the Apostles then the Bible is.

EDITIII: Your intial chanllenge was that ALL of the APOSTLES teachings were in the bible.

EDIT IV: Note that website that you gave me places the Didache consensus between 50 and 100 CE under dating. :), you proved my point:

From the site: Scholars argue dates as late as the 4th century, but the consensus places it c.100 CE. Some scholars have argued more recently for a date as early as 50 CE. that gives the Didache the widest range of dating estimates of any Christian book.

The Didache does not fit clearly into any period of liturgy or ministry for which we have documentation. Does it therefore belong to a period before such documentation? "This is the thesis advanced in the massive recent commentary by J.-P. Audst who concludes it was composed almost certainly in Antioch between 50 and 70."(3) The case must rest on the many indications of genuine primitiveness in the Didache which point to a stage in the life of the church that is still that of the NT period itself.

Aune points out that the apostles mentioned several times in the Didache (11:3,4,6) are not associated with specific factions, a fact that suggests they belonged to an early period(4). The prayers and thanksgiving are full of archaic terminology, echoing not only the servant (pais) Christology of the early speeches of Acts (Did.9:2f; 10:2f; Acts 3:13,26; 4:27,30) which Robinson calls "the earliest Christian liturgical sequence (Did.10:6; cf. 1 Corinthians 16:22-24)"(5).

In Did. 9:1-3 the cup precedes the bread, as in 1 Corinthians 10:16 and Luke 22:17-19. The regulations about food (Did. 6:3) presupposed a period and milieu where the dietary question is still genuinely posed. We are in the age of itinerant apostles, prophets and teachers (11-13), and at a "point of transition from the ministry of prophets and teachers to that of bishops and deacons"(6) where the former are not available for regular ministry in the local church (15:1f).

This transition is touched upon by Phil.1:1 and the Pastoral Epistles. C.H. Turner recognised that a "date between 80 and 100 is as early as we are prepared to admit" but "it does not follow that so early a date (i.e. 60) is inevitable."(7)

Like the epistle of James, it is content to leave doctrinal issues on one side. There is no polemic - as in the Pastorals - against heterodox or Gnostic tendencies within the church, merely a concern to maintain a practical distinction between Christians and Jews. The final chapter on eschatology aims much the same apocalyptic atmosphere as 1 & 2 Thessalonians (with which it has many parallels). "It displays dominical and traditional OT materials which seem to have been produced by the early church between 40 and 70"(8). Yet in the Synoptics there is apparently no attempt to fuse this material with predictions of the destruction of the temple or the fall of Jerusalem. This, it is argued, suggests that it is composed either well before or well after these events.

There is little sign of the persecution or 'falling away' and with it the concern for consolidation in doctrine and structure, something Robinson sees as characteristic of the 60's. He is inclined to date the Didache between 40 and 60 assuming that all the NT canon had been written before c.80. Summing up, J.A. Kliest is honest: "If we admit an early date of composition, all the evidence is in favour of it; if we insist on a late date, we have to face a mass of conjectures and hypotheses."(9) It appears that the pivotal point is 70 CE. The presuppositions of the scholar will determine which side he opts for: the majority cautiously hover around 100 CE.

EDIT V: Yes, the didache does. It teaches that the Communion meal MUST be shared in order to have worship on the Lord's day. Jesus said this, but it is not recognized as a preaching of the Apostles in the bible. The remission of sin by confession again Jesus said this but it is not attributed to the Apostles in the bible. Your words will be fulfilled by deed (not by saying faith), Baptism NOT by dunking or by words "accepting Jesus Christ" but by pouring water over the head and sprinkling if you are not at a naturally running body of water. One MUST repetitedly pray the Our Father (3x a day). These are all things rejected by modern Evangelicals who call themselves "Bible Christians" because they claim they are not taught in the bible but are taught in the Didache. AND that if anyone preaches anything in contradiction to this, hear him not.

Answer 2

The early Church did not have the New Testament to go by. The New Testament was not compiled until about 400 C.E.

Every letter that Paul wrote was not in the Bible at the time he wrote it. Most of them were even written before the Gospels were written down.

The Gospels teach about papal infallibility and the sinlessness of the Blessed Virgin Mary.

+ Papal Infallibility +

The Catholic Church teaches that the Pope is infallible at closely defined times.

The Pope is only infallible when he, in union with the body of bishops, solemnly teaches that a doctrine as true. This is called "ex cathedra", literally meaning in Latin "from the chair".

This comes from the words of Jesus to Peter (the first Pope) and the Apostles (the first bishops), "Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven" (Matthew 18:18) and "He who hears you hears me" (Luke 10:16).

At all other times the Pope can be just as wrong or sinful as you and me and be in need of forgiveness.

For more information, see the Catechism of the Catholic Church, section 891: http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1sect2chpt3art9p4.htm#891

+ The Blessed Virgin Mary +

When the angel Gabriel called Mary, "Full of grace," Mary was already full of grace.

When the angel Gabriel said, "The Lord is with you," the Lord was already with her.

The Blessed Virgin Mary was in a state of grace before she says "yes" to the angel's question and before the Holy Spirit came upon her for a different purpose.

When did Mary's state of grace begin?

Catholics believe this state of grace was with Mary since her Immaculate Conception. This means that Mary was conceived in the normal way (not like Jesus) but that she did not inherit original sin.

With the grace of God and without the effects of original Sin, we believe that Mary did not commit personal sin at any time during her life.

God prepared her for her later role as the mother of Jesus.

Catholics celebrate this miracle on December 8 as the Feast of the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary.

For more information, see the Catechism of the Catholic Church, section 490 and following: http://www.nccbuscc.org/catechism/text/pt1sect2chpt2art3p2.htm#490

+ With love in Christ.

Answer 3

Sure Edge, but first show me in the Bible where it says that everything taught is contained in the written Scriptures. Why would it be as there was a Church at the time and there still is that Church 2000 years later.

In Christ
Fr. Joseph

Answer 4

Edge - I'm with Father Joseph on this one.
As I've said before i know a lot of Catholics - and what *stands out* for me is humility in their relationship with The Lord. Catholics have a deep understanding of The Holy Spirit - and i believe b/c of this, their understanding of God's Word is something we can all learn from. I've learnt a lot since coming on here from Catholics - and i hope to learn much more.

Answer 5

every single thing the apostles taught is in the Bible? are you sure?

where in the Bible did it say that?

edit: I searched in the Bible where it says that "every SINGLE thing the apostles taught is in the Bible", but I found none, however, I found this written in the Bible instead:

"So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us."

that's biblical. or have you skipped it?

Answer 6

"Seems to me this says the Bible teaches us everything we need to know in order to do all good works."

If what you say is true, why can't you use the Bible to prove evidence of the trinity? Answer: You can't.

Why do you keep your profile secret? What are you afraid of?

Answer 7

Jesus told Peter he was "The Rock" and on this rock I shall build my church. Peter named Linus as his successor. (AKA Pope Linus) and so on and so forth. BTW, I'm pretty sure when Father K gets in he'll answer all your questions. Oh wait he did that in another one of these questions.

*drink*

Answer 8

their oral traditions told them these things - purrrrty convenient, ay mayte?