CATHOLIC BROTHERS AND SISTER, does this not disturb you?Please open your hearts and minds to this.?

Question

"The Vatican said earlier this week that Pope Benedict XVI would {grant indulgences for a limited time} to pilgrims who visit Lourdes for the 150th anniversary."
"In the Catholic Church, indulgences are remittances of suffering for sins. {"The Vatican said earlier this week that Pope Benedict XVI would {grant indulgences for a limited time} to pilgrims who visit Lourdes for the 150th anniversary."
"In the Catholic Church, indulgences are remittances of suffering for sins. {In order to go to heaven, it is believed one must 'repair' the harm committed on earth before death.}"

HOW CAN A MAN PUT A "TIME LIMIT" ON SALVATION?

I KNOW THAT MANY OF YOU KNOW THAT WE ARE SAVED BY JESUS ONLY.YET HERE RESTRICTIONS ARE APPLIED. "In order to go to heaven, it is believed one must 'repair' the harm committed on earth before death." THIS IS BEING SAVED BY WORKS.We all should make restitution when lead by the spirit to do so.But we do that because we ARE SAVED, not so we can be saved.Right?

READ CAREFULLY BEFORE ANSWERING PLEASE.

JP it's right here in front of you.It's as clear as can be.What is there not to understand.Open your eyes, please?

JP, forgiveness should NEVER cost any money!
Isa 52:3 For thus saith the LORD, Ye have sold yourselves for nought; and ye shall be {redeemed without money.}
Isa 55:1 Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk {without money and without price.}

wolfeblayde, I apreciate your scripture and I am not trying to sound rude.What I am reading here is pay out your salavation instead of "work out". This may sounds like I am trying to pick on Catholics I am not.I have done that in the past and have been reproved by the Spirit for it.I am not trying to prove anybody wrong, what I am doing is trying to prove what is right in God's eyes.You don't run a speacial on forgiveness and tell everyone that there is only three days left on this sale.

JP your right, I am ignorant of Catholic teachings, but I am not ignorant of my Fathers teachings.If you knew my Fathers teaching you could easily enlighten me on this subject and use my Fathers teachings to do it.Instead you use Catholic teachings and that is why so many of us are ignorant to the Catholic teachings.

JP, your right again, the Bible is my only source.For me to answer your questions I would have to sound rude, I don't like to do that, so I will try to be as kind as possible.I think Tyndale could have answered you very well, and would have, but he was strangled and burned at a stake, for translating the Bible from its original translation into english.Yet much of what we have in the KJV today comes from his manuscripts, of those that where not burned.
What I can say is this. The books that we do have condeems such teachings as indulgency's or paying for forgiveness.If it says that in one verse, it should say it in all of them.Your welcome to the last comment.Thank you for sharing, and I do love you. don s.

CRISTOIGLESIA, your example of the son is perfect.The son comes and asked for forgiveness of what he has done.Now is he forgiven? You say no, but the Word of God says YES he is.Yes he should go on and make things right, but suppose that instead of breaking a window he killed another man? What would he do then? Restoration from a Christian should take place because he/she is saved.NOT SO THEY CAN BE SAVED. Salvation comes "Not of works, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:9

spiritroaming, who said anything about fear? I am sorry if Your afraid of me. All I am looking for is the truth of what God would want. Are you afraid of that?

starlight, Sister I can't imagine what kind of person would give you a thumbs down for wanting the Holy Spirit to lead rather than man.So far you have Best Answer.

Kayne,- Sister I am sorry that I hav enot responded to your emails, however I have not recieved them. I don't know why, but I will try and send you one and see if it goes through,
ds

KAYNE, I did not get an email yet.

CRISTOGIESIA, I read what you wrote, but I don't think you did. I quote you here, "Has he completed his repentance? No".Salvation is based on forgiveness.In order for someone to obtain forgiveness they must repent completly.I give you the last say, Thank You.

Answer 1

Where does following the leading of the Holy Spirit come in? I like the HS to be my leader and not man.

Answer 2

Here's the problem. . . you don't know what an indulgence is. Your perception of indulgences is nothing more than a myth.

Myth 1: A person can buy his way out of hell with indulgences.

This is a common misunderstanding, one that anti-Catholic commentators take advantage of, relying on the ignorance of both Catholics and non-Catholics. But the charge is without foundation. Since indulgences remit only temporal penalties, they cannot remit the eternal penalty of hell. Once a person is in hell, no amount of indulgences will ever change that fact. The only way to avoid hell is by appealing to God's eternal mercy while still alive. After death, one's eternal fate is set (Heb. 9:27).

Myth 2: A person can buy indulgences for sins not yet committed.

The Church has always taught that indulgences do not apply to sins not yet committed. The Catholic Encyclopedia notes, "[An indulgence] is not a permission to commit sin, nor a pardon of future sin; neither could be granted by any power."

Myth 3: A person can "buy forgiveness" with indulgences.

The definition of indulgences presupposes that forgiveness has already taken place: "An indulgence is a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven" (Indulgentarium Doctrina norm 1). Indulgences in no way forgive sins. They deal only with punishments left after sins have been forgiven.

Myth 4: Indulgences were invented to money for the Church.

Indulgences developed from reflection on the sacrament of reconciliation. They are a way of shortening the penance of sacramental discipline and were in use centuries before money-related problems appeared.

Myth 5: An indulgence will shorten your time in purgatory by a fixed number of days.

The number of days which used to be attached to indulgences were references to the period of penance one might undergo during life on earth. The Catholic Church does not claim to know anything about how long or short purgatory is in general, much less in a specific person's case.

Myth 6: A person can buy indulgences.

The Council of Trent instituted severe reforms in the practice of granting indulgences, and, because of prior abuses, "in 1567 Pope Pius V canceled all grants of indulgences involving any fees or other financial transactions" (Catholic Encyclopedia). This act proved the Church's seriousness about removing abuses from indulgences.

Myth 7: A person used to be able to buy indulgences.

One never could "buy" indulgences. The financial scandal around indulgences, the scandal that gave Martin Luther an excuse for his heterodoxy, involved alms-indulgences in which the giving of alms to some charitable fund or foundation was used as the occasion to grant the indulgence. There was no outright selling of indulgences. The Catholic Encyclopedia states: "[I]t is easy to see how abuses crept in. Among the good works which might be encouraged by being made the condition of an indulgence, almsgiving would naturally hold a conspicuous place. . . It is well to observe that in these purposes there is nothing essentially evil. To give money to God or to the poor is a praiseworthy act, and, when it is done from right motives, it will surely not go unrewarded."

Answer 3

You do not understand the condept of an indulgence.

+ Purgatory +

To discuss indulgences, first we have to talk about Purgation (or Purgatory).

Are you perfect now? Most people would say no.

Will you be perfect in heaven? Most people believe yes.

Purgatory (or purgation) is the process of God's love changing our imperfect selves into perfect beings. Depending on the amount of change needed by different people this can be an easy or slightly harder process.

Everyone in purgatory is on their way to heaven. I don't think Mother Teresa of Calcutta had a very hard time of it.

+ Indulgences +

The concept is that a person can do acts of penance now on earth to make purgation easier.

Penance is internally turning one's heart toward God and away from sin in hope in divine mercy and externally by fasting, prayer, and almsgiving.

A corruption grew in the Church many years ago where rich people would give enough alms (money to the Church) to essentially buy an easy way to heaven. This was one of Martin Luther's protests (hence Protestants) and shortly thereafter the Catholic Church cleaned up this practice.

In 1567 Pope Pius V canceled all grants of indulgences involving any fees or other financial transactions.

But remember because everyone in purgatory is already on their way to heaven, indulgences do not get you into heaven. They just make purgation easier.

I guess if you did not believe in purgatory then there would be no reason to worry about indulgences.

With love in Christ.

Answer 4

The Pope cannot control God. Just because the Pope offers indulgences, these are just symbols of repentance. God will decide what He wills not based on things handed out to pilgrims at some anniversary. The Pope is not putting a "time limit" on salvation, because he cannot, even in his wisdom, do such a thing. Only God can do such things. It is true what you say: a man will not simply go to heaven from an indulgence.

Answer 5

An indulgence is not Salvation.

Salvation and Justification are separate as well.

Tell me, when you clearly don't understand Catholic teachings, why do you seem convinced you understand it enough to condemn it?

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Yogini:

Very few modern day indulgences require money. Indeed, a Rosary Novena grants a full plenary indulgence, and it is completely free to the person who performs one.

The Pope has not demanded people to pay for the Indulgence of Lourdes. He's merely added a spiritual benefit to those who would have gone anyways.

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don s:

So far, you've said nothing about forgiveness until you addressed me.

Indulgences are not forgiveness.

So again, you show your ignorance of Catholic teaching.

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don s:

If you really care, the materials are out there. Read the Catechism. It cites Biblical teachings and the writings of the early Church fathers. There is no aspect to it which does not refer back to one of the two.

I anticipate you will object to it referencing anything more than the bible, that the Bible is your sole authority. If so I have two questions for you:

1.) Sola Scriptura states that the Bible is the sole Biblical authority. Can you then please show me Book, Chapter, and Verse which lists which books belong in the Bible? If you cannot, then you must admit that the Bible itself exists by tradition.

2.) I assume the Bible you use has 66 books. Can you explain to me why from before 400 AD up until Martin Luther's translation (published 1522), the Bible had 73 books (a detail which is a matter of historical record)? Further, short of the Septuagint Old Testament, none of the votes for the cannon were unanimous (another detail which is a matter of historical record) and as such the 'Spirit-Inspiration' theory seems questionable. It seems to me that the addition or removal of books would have to rest entirely on the weight of tradition, not scripture.

In essence, if you wish to cite solely the Bible as authoritative, then you negate the Bible itself since you cannot cite the authority which formulated it. You can say, "God inspired it," surely, but you cannot say, "And here's where God said which books were inspired and which were not."

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Yoginin:

Your hostility is misplaced. I have not addressed you in a pompous manner. Kindly address this with meditation on why a straight forward, neutrally word response would invoke such hostility in you. I stated four facts, without judgement or supposition.

I did not explain what a Rosary Novena was. You identify yourself as ex-Catholic. It seemed reasonable you would know what one is. I did not say that a novena excuses people from living their faith to the benefit of others, as you have implied. I simply stated the fact that a Rosary Novena bears a plenary indulgence for the person praying it (or, incidentally, a partial indulgence if it is said on behalf of another).

I too have taken Catholic theology courses. I, like you, am an ex-Catholic (though in my case, I am now an atheist, whereas you are now a Buddhist).

Answer 6

before everything you're stunning as much as a think approximately regards to the translation. in case you seem at what became happening extra afield around the time of Jesus and there after the respond would be clearer. It wasn`t in basic terms the romans who had hardship with the celtic human beings yet those from the church homes who have been spreading the "information". before everything we could continually be conscious the the Celts view on spirituality became plenty such as paganism (who says this became incorrect?) and such as the Gnostic understandings. The celts as an occasion, believed very plenty interior the spirit who became, no longer purely interior of yet may even stay interior the comparable area yet truly diverse time as us. they might have certainly been gentle with the view that Jesus had siblings yet, the church would`ve had a extra stable time attempting to transform than it easily did. in case you seem on the Catholic calender you will see that maximum of our pageant/ saints days are on or with regard to the old pagan ones. This became the only thank you to convince our Celtic fore fathers that the recent message of Christ became certainly extra effective or extra closer the fact than the classic strategies. some thing that many at the instant are consistent with threat thinking. For me this doesn`t recommend that my faith is misguided it in basic terms potential i seem on the translation in any different case now i'm older. i detect the rituals and ceremonies powerful and moving. This doesn`t recommend i've got faith all different faiths to be incorrect the two.

Answer 7

As JP pointed out, salvation is a separate issue from purification for one's deliberate choice to sin. We are saved through Christ's sacrifice on the Cross, that's true, but we are not automatically made fit for Heaven. Scripture tells us that:

Phillipians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

If salvation was a one-time only event, then why does Paul tell us to work out our salvation in fear and trembling? The reason is that a holy God cannot look upon sin, and nothing sinful or polluted can enter Heaven. Purgatory is a place of purifying and learning so that we are fit to spend eternity with God.

By acknowledging our sinfulness while we are on earth and allowing God to cleanse us, we can learn some of the lessons that we would otherwise have to deal with in Purgatory. In order to gain the benefits of an indulgence, we must confess our sins, be sorry for them, and make restitution through prayer, pilgrimage, giving alms, etc.

Those things are not strictly necessary for forgiveness, but they *are* a way of reminding us that sin has consequences which must be dealt with. Most people don't value things that don't cost them anything, and the same thing is true of forgiveness.

When we realize that there is a penalty for choosing evil -- our Savior suffering on the Cross and our own loss of innocence -- we tend to be less likely to sin the next time.

Edit:

Thank you for your courtesy -- that's rare here and greatly appreciated.

The issue is not a matter of "paying" for one's salvation, but rather recognizing that sin has consequences and we are responsible for our actions.

Answer 8

Of course I am not disturbed by this. I only wish I could visit Lourdes one day.

I am not disturbed because I understand the Catholic teaching on salvation, forgiveness, and indulgences, which apparently you do not.

Answer 9

I was raised Catholic but now see that the whole thing is fabricated to control souls and disconnect them from God. The Vatican is the 666, the anti- christ.
All christian religions were invented by mankind as a way to control people and take their money.
So this Pope is just an evil force showing its colors.

Answer 10

I am afraid you do not understand the Catholic teaching on salvation or the purpose of indulgences. I pray that you will study what the Church teaches so that you will not continue to make errors in your knowledge of Catholic theology.

Initial salvation comes through the encouragement of the Holy Spirit bringing us to faith and sanctification. This grace given by God is unmerited and certainly not earned. Catholic teaching is that all works are not the result of our own efforts but are produced by His grace. At judgment God will see our works produced by His grace as meritorious. Through God and His grace working in our lives we earn our salvation. Catholic teaching in regards to merit is very similar if not identical to the Protestant monergistic view, meaning that all is of God, approach rather than a synergistic approach, some of God and some of us, as Catholics get accused. The actual view of Catholics is that God does all the work and we do all the work. Catholics give all the credit to God but also understand that their response to grace is deserving of merit.

The way I see it is that we respond to God’s promises He is obligated to fulfill a debt He has incurred through His promise. We through His grace put faith and trust in those promises. Since God promises us eternal life by our faith then He has created an obligation for Himself. It is God’s promise that makes it a merit and not our work because God represents to us justice and truth and by us responding to His commands through the Spirit He has created a debt deserved by crediting us with merit even though it is through Christ and the Holy Spirit that we responded to His commands and will.

In Christ
Fr. Joseph

Let me try another approach for understanding.......

Let us imagine that we have a son. Our son gets involved in a prank where he breaks the neighbors car windshield. Your son comes to you and says he is sorry and is sincere. He also goes to the one whose windshield was broken and apologizes. Has he completed his repentance? No, he still needs to make restitution for the windshield to put His neighbor back into the same place he was before the vandalism. Then and only then has the repentance been complete and the relationship with the neighbor been restored.

Don S,

It appears you did not read what I wrote. I clearly said that salvation is not based on works but that we will restore ourselves because the Spirit dwelling inside of us reveals the need for restoration after we sin. A price must be paid for sin or sin remains and the repentance is not complete until the price is paid and we commit to sin no more. You say we do these things because we are saved but the Bible teaches that we are not saved until judgment. I say we seek repentance and restoration because we are filled with the Holy Spirit who directs us to repentance which is the biblical teaching. You probably believe that salvation is a one time intellectual ascension to belief while I believe as the Bible teaches that it is a process of sanctification and justification to final salvation at judgment. Essentially we are saying the same thing, that the works of repentance are from God and not ourselves. Why can't you get it?