Jehovah's Witnesses, can you answer something for me concerning the "faithful and discreet"?

Question

Matthew 24:45 “Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time?"

You believe the "faithful and discreet slave" (notice the singular form of "slave" here) is a small and humble group of anointed men in Brooklyn New York.

DID YOU KNOW? According to Watchtower Dogma, most JWs do not know that the faithful and discreet slave actually make up the entire anointed remnant of 144,000, and only eight to ten of these anointed ones are chosen for the Governing Body.

Back to the matter, you believe the "faithful and discreet" recieve their information straight from Jehovah. So my question is this...Is Jehovah always wrong? Shouldn't the light that comes from Jehovah always be right? If the information comes from Jehovah, you should never have to have "new light". Did you know that JWs celebrated Christmas for decades before claiming it was "pagan"?

(continued in added details)

According to Watchtower doctrine, Jesus came back to the earth in 1918 to judge all the churches of the world and supposedly chose the Watchtower Society to be God's sole channel of communication. If this is so, why didn't Jesus himself let them know in 1918 that it was wrong to celebrate his birth?

Besides, in this Matthew scripture was
Jesus actually referring to an organization which was set up nearly two millennia after he was on earth? Does it seem reasonable that Matthew who was not a prophet and who's words were written for the Jews, foreshadow an organization started by Charles Taze Russell the bona fide false prophet?

Simply put, Jesus was using a parable to display contrast. Jesus contrasts two possible ways that a disciple could carry out the task of being put in charge of his master's household. Each servant has a choice to be "faithful" or unfaithful (evil slave). Those who are faithful and wise will be rewarded, those who are not will be punished.

Many JWs don't know this but The Watchtower (12/1/1916) pgs.356-386 claims that Russell was the "faithful and discreet". This was believed by The Watchtower.

The original scripture says "wise" instead of "discreet". This has been rendered.

JC -- How ever wrong could you be in your sad explanation?

The "faithful and WISE" are "appointed" and receive word from Jehovah himself. They are to give "food at the proper time". If they receive word from Jehovah, there is no room for error. We are not talking about mere humans, we're talking about the "FAITHFUL and WISE (or discreet)". They should "at the proper time" give "Jehovah's words". Not only are "Jehovah's words" WRONG, but I'd say if NEW LIGHT came LATER, then they didn't give the "food at the proper time" now did they? Shouldn't the "revelation of the new light" been the FIRST "light" fed to you at the PROPER TIME?

There is no room for error if the Watchtower publication is really "the only true understandings and interpretaions straight from Jehovah".

Besides, I've done told you that verse is not speaking about the men in New York.

JC -- So now you're saying the Holy Spirit is wrong and makes mistakes? If the Holy Spirit directed the men to write the scriptures (2 Tim. 3:16) are you saying it's possible these men made mistakes as well? Were THEY "perfect"? Were THEY human?

Just stop while you're ahead (as if you ever were). You're embarrasing yourself.

JC -- you make no sense. If your teaching doesn't come from Jehovah but from men directed by the Holy Spirit who make mistakes, then how can you believe and trust what they say? You can't can you? How do you know the teachings you have now aren't mistakes? Besides, how can someone led by the Spirit make mistakes? Does it not worry you that your teaching doesn't come from Jehovah (as you claim) but by faulty humans? Good luck with your faulty teachings.

JC -- thank you for participating in my trap. You confirmed that the message DOES come from Jehovah. If your "faithful and discreet" are the only ones who can interpret the Bible and your denomination is the only one who has the real "truth", how can they mistake Jehovah's message to you? It's not hard to relay an important message from Jehovah.

Either 1) The message comes from Jehovah and they aren't publishing it or
2) The message doesn't come from Jehovah.

XYLeisha -- No, that's not what I was saying.

That verse you gave is talking about God having much to say but is keeping from telling them. The Watchtower claims that Jehovah HAS spoken the message to them.

Trustdell1: Then the publications by The Watchtower shouldn't teach anything in their books until they recieve the word from Jehovah. Wait, that's right, they claim it IS from Jehovah. Whose been wrong. Even if the teaching wasn't from Jehovah but he revealed it later, then that would go against them "feeding you at the proper time".

I think you skipped the part I said "According to Watchtower doctrine, Jesus came back to the earth in 1918 to judge all the churches of the world and supposedly chose the Watchtower Society to be God's sole channel of communication. If this is so, why didn't Jesus himself let them know in 1918 that it was wrong to celebrate his birth?"

JC -- I was referring to when you said "They are being directly by him by his Holy Spirit". DUH, can YOU not understand this? So do the messages printed by The Watchtower come from Jehovah or not? If they do, then your faithful and discreet appointed servants aren't publishing Jehovah's truth or else you wouldn't need new light. If they don't come from Jehovah, then your faithful and discreet servants are really the "only correct interpretators of the Bible". For they have made several wront interpretations.
And like I've said several times before, not only are the "faithful and discreet" NOT the men in New York, but "slave" is SINGULAR and does NOT go with the other scripture you tried referring to. THE WATCHTOWER BELIEVED RUSSELL WAS THE "FAITHFUL AND DISCREET" SERVANT.

UPDATE: KEIICHI

Jesus told them at that time not to take any. It wasn't a TEACHING. Then he allowed them to at a different time. This has nothing to do with teaching or practiced doctrine.

As for the circumcision, it was no longer NECESSARY. It doesn't mean it was OK and then turned to a big NO-NO. It being no longer necessary doesn't meant they couldn't do it at all. It wasn't a Hot to Cold change. It was more like a closed door doesn't have to stay closed anymore.

Answer 1

No.

It is impossible to become baptized into the Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses without demonstrating one's accurate understanding of "the faithful and discreet slave". The Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses (headquartered in New York) is considered to be merely representative of that entire group. Thus, 100% of Jehovah's Witnesses certainly DO know what the questioner pretends they do not.

Perhaps the questioner should re-read Jesus' actual words to the apostles. Jesus never claims that the spiritual "food" that would be provided to the congregation would be miraculous messages from heaven, and in fact it seems that the "slave" earns its privileges by having previously established a history of making good decisions about which bible-based material to present at which times.
...(Luke 12:42) Lord said: “Who really is the faithful steward, the discreet one, whom his master will appoint over his body of attendants to keep giving them their measure of food supplies at the proper time?
...(Matt 24:45-47) Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time? Happy is that slave if his master on arriving finds him doing so. Truly I say to you, He will appoint him over all his belongings.


Of course, the modern "Governing Body" performs a work similar to that of the first century governing body, who met in Jerusalem. The bible calls that ancient group "the apostles and the older men" and also "governors of you [Christians]" (see Hebrews 13:7 or its footnote).

(Acts 15:6,23) And the apostles and the older men gathered together to see about this affair. By their hand they wrote: “The apostles and the older men, brothers, to those brothers..."

(Acts 16:4,5) Now as they traveled on through the cities they would deliver to those there for observance the decrees that had been decided upon by the apostles and older men who were in Jerusalem. Therefore, indeed, the congregations continued to be made firm in the faith and to increase in number from day to day.

Learn more:
http://watchtower.co.uk/e/jt/index.htm?article=article_07.htm
http://www.jw-media.org/beliefs/membership.htm

Answer 2

"DID YOU KNOW? According to Watchtower Dogma, most JWs do not know that the faithful and discreet slave actually make up the entire anointed remnant of 144,000, and only eight to ten of these anointed ones are chosen for the Governing Body."

If I understand you correctly, you're saying that no one else is anointed? That simply isn't so. There are 2 people in my congregation who partake (are anointed). One is 60 something and the other is under 35 years old. They are not part of the Governing body.

According to Jehovah's Witnesses, are you considered to be disfellowshipped or disassociated? You seem to have some knowledge about the organization.

The anointed are lead by holy spirit- not controlled by it.
.... If I'm leisurely riding a horse along a trail that the horse knows but I don't I can chose to be lead or take over the reigns. I know that's a horrible analogy lol, but it's the best I can think of at this late hour. People can also be lead by desires or wants, but do we follow where they take us or venture in another direction?
The Governing Body does the best they can with what they have- an imperfect mind in an imperfect system. Sometimes, past experience can veil matters (like when coming out of Christendom and having to shake off old beliefs).

And some things HAVE to be progressive or it will cause too many people to stumble or we simply wouldn't understand it.
John 16:12, 13 says: "“I have many things yet to say to YOU, but YOU are not able to bear them at present. 13 However, when that one arrives, the spirit of the truth, he will guide YOU into all the truth... "
Even back then, knowledge was gradual.

Answer 3

If the information comes from Jehovah, you should never have to have "new light"?

On the issue of changing doctrine: In the 1st Century, the apostles made a huge doctrinal change—what you call a flip-flop.

Being Jewish, all the apostles and older men in Jerusalem accepted the Jewish customs and way of life, even after becoming Christians. The Scriptures do not specifically say that the apostles actively advocated circumcision, but we may be sure they thought it was important for the simple reason that it required a long period of discussion among the brothers as to its importance in the Christian faith.

So, imagine the bombshell they set off among the Jewish Christians when the apostles finally ruled that non-Jews were not required to observe Jewish customs. They were saying that after all those years of Hebrew circumcision that it was not necessary anymore to be circumcised in order to be a child of Abraham. That had to have come as quite a jolt to some. In fact, many anointed Christians back then could not accept the apostolic ruling. Consequently, they became rapid opponents of the teaching of the apostles. Paul called them the Judaizers—dogs—who wanted to mutilate the flesh of the uncircumcised.

The lesson is: Change with the times or be left behind.

Unlike us, Jesus was an inspired teacher, and yet Christ once instructed his apostles not to carry a purse or a food pouch or a change of clothing when they went on the preaching tour. Later, though, he instructed them to do the exact opposite. He told them to take a purse and food pouch.

Was Jesus guilty of a doctrinal "flip-flop"?

No doubt many of the Watchtower's enemies today would similarly accuse Christ of such if they used the same measure of judgment.

The Scriptures plainly say that it is inevitable that some people will stumble over various teachings, changes, errors and the bad behavior of others in the truth. That is unfortunate and tragic to be sure. Many of these stumbling blocks, however, seem as mere pebbles strewn on the path.

The question we ought to ask is: If we allow ourselves to be stumbled over such trivial things, what are we going to do when some serious stumbling blocks obstruct our path?

Answer 4

John 16:12, 13 says: "“I have many things yet to say to YOU, but YOU are not able to bear them at present. 13 However, when that one arrives, the spirit of the truth, he will guide YOU into all the truth...”


This is a really nice text to think about. When this was told to the disciples, they still do not have ALL THE TRUTH. The spirit of the truth needs to arrive first, and then will guide them into ALL THE TRUTH.

This shows that Christians are guided by the holy spirit. The guidance given by the holy spirit is not wrong, but due to human imperfection, the imperfect human can make mistakes. That’s why the spirit GUIDES. It doesn’t control one as a robot.

The early Christians before made some mistakes as a Christian congregation.

Rev 2:14-16 states that the Pergamum congregation has some teachings of Balaam in their midst. Obviously they needed to be corrected.

14 “‘Nevertheless, I have a few things against you, that you have there those holding fast the teaching of Ba´laam, who went teaching Ba´lak to put a stumbling block before the sons of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols and to commit fornication. 15 So you, also, have those holding fast the teaching of the sect of Nic•o•la´us likewise. 16 Therefore repent. If you do not, I am coming to you quickly, and I will war with them with the long sword of my mouth.

What is worst is that when the holy spirit guides us, that we don’t correct our mistakes and be humble.

JWs have corrected the mistakes and humbled themselves, that’s why for example, Christmas which was once celebrated was stopped after realizing that this holiday is not making God happy and an insult to Jesus.

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EDITED:
I don’t see a problem if God and Jesus chose to reveal to his servants some truths at a later date. Jehovah is revealing his truths and secrets at a later time anyways.

Jehovah and Jesus are using his faithful slaves right now to feed his congregation at the proper time. The food that God gives is good, but it doesn’t mean that sometimes an imperfect and sinful human cannot put dirt in the food. Even in a very nice restaurant, the food served may be contaminated, but as soon as the owners realize that, they make sure that the next serving is clean and good.

Answer 5

Yes, the FDS is the entire group of 144,000 of Christ's Bride. I know that. What is your point?

As for "new light", let me point out the apostles for a time did not understand Jesus' Kingdom was not to be earthly only. Gradually they learned better.

In any complicated endeavor there is a learning process. If I gave you a surgical kit, would you find anyone who would allow you to operate on them? Would not some idea of previous study be a good idea? Why do all surgeons not really want their first years of study to be brought up?

You just do not dump all the information needed for something complicated into anyones mind all at once!

Yes JWs celebrated Christmas and birthdays and other things like using tobacco. The point is we learned better and we changed. Unlike Christendom, who has for decades known of the pagan origin of most of their holidays and utter stupidity of the trinity doctrine, still hold on firmly to them, regardless of scriptural principles and outright statements against those beliefs.

As we progress in time and learning we will change accordingly to our clearer knowledge and understanding. Will you?

Answer 6

Yes, thats what the 144,000 is, the Faithful and Discreet Slave. Is it singular as in one person? No, Luke 12:37 says they are slaves (or servants).

Jehovah is never wrong, but human can be. God said that the true knowledge,sacred secrets will be revealed in the last days. So knowing that, change must be accepted by humble servants. This is something

The Witnesses use to celebrate Christmas, and also use the Cross. But knowing that it was a of a pagan source, they rejected it. They were willing to accept what was wrong, and come to a better understanding of what is true and what is false. Sadly, Christendom doesn't accept change, and are willing sick to pagan things.

UPDATE:
You're wrong if you think they receive things directly from Jehovah God himself. They are being directly by him by his Holy Spirit, and they will make mistakes on the way. They are called the faithful and and discreet slave, not the faithful and perfect slave.

Are humans perfect? No. Do they make mistakes? Yes.

Other than Jesus, show me one Faithful man (or woman) that was a faithful servant of God and did not make mistakes.

Clearly, you will not find this.

UPDATE:
The Holy Spirit is NEVER wrong. If you're guided by it, you will be led in the right direction.. but it doesn't mean you WONT make mistakes getting to where you need to go.

I'm also not embarrassing myself.. you just have to consider things before asking questions such as this.


UPDATE:
Those who are lead by the Spirit of God aren't directly controlled by God. Its a form of guidance on accomplishing his will. In the book of Revelation, those preaching the Good news are suppose to be lead by the angels and so forth, but are they perfect in doing so? Obviously not.

You also took my words out of context.. I never said our teachings don't come from Jehovah.. I said God doesn't give them things directly.. Thats different to what you was referring to.

So to be clear.. Our teachings do come from Jehovah, based on his word the Bible.

UPDATE:
Trap? LOL. You're just putting words in my mouth.

I never said they received direct messages from Jehovah. I said our teachings come from Jehovah, BASED on his word the Bible. That means our teachings come from the Bible..

You really have a hard time understanding.

UPDATE:
The only thing you're doing is twisting my words around, and its not working. Its clear that you have absolutely no clue about the Spirit of God and how it works.

Those who are directed by Gods Holy Spirit aren't directly controlled by him, which I've been saying all along. If you are being directed by his holy Spirit, you are being guided on getting to a point where you need to go. In this case with the Faithful and Discreet Slave is being guided on coming to a accurate knowledge word the Bible. Without this, the sacred secret would have no been revealed.

God says that he gives holy spirit to those asking for it, but that doesn't mean they turn perfect after receiving it. The Holy Spirit gets you though trails and tribulation, and it also directs you on the right path on doing whats right. Do people make mistakes on getting through these things? Yes they do, and thats something you do not understand.

The other scripture does go along to what I'm saying, because Jesus is talking about the same exact thing. The title "the Anti Christ" is singular, but it doesn't mean its one person.

UPDATE:
The Bible was written by means of Gods Holy Spirit.. So did the writers make mistakes on getting this book completed?

Answer 7

Their explanations so far are ridiculous. They are totally dodging the point that these teachings are from Jehovah and yet they admit "they learn from mistakes" and that "humans are wrong". Did Jehovah tell them to teach these "wrongs" and "mistakes"? PLEASE. They've got nothing on this. They can't explain this away. Especially since the "faithful and discreet" aren't even the people they think Matthew wrote about more than 2,000 years ago. Why would he have written in the past tense about something that's supposed to happen in the late 1800s?

Answer 8

Nicely said! In 1975 they also preached the end of the world. They have been proven to be a false religion, and anyone with any scruples would stay away from them.

Have you noticed the similarities between Jw's and Mormons. Uncanny!

Jesus is Lord

Answer 9

i don't know where you read this jesus came back in 1918 thing from, but if he came back it would be like taking back the ranson sacrifice, since he died for one time for all. what i mean by that is that he would need to die AGAIN to go back to heaven.

Answer 10

Dear Jereme K,

Good points! I agree with CH and RidiculousQstioner w/Vengeance.
Thumbs up for them and a star for you.

For His glory,
JOYfilled