Theists who accept only what you call 'micro-evolution', can I ask you something?

Question

Besides the genes, is there something that gives a mouse its typical "mouse-ness"? Isn't the expression of a certain set of genes something that results in a mouse? When those genes change over generations (which we can observe) is there some binding factor that keeps a species like that mouse within 'mouse-like' bounds?

Of course most of the changes are extremely small from generation to generation; large changes in one generational leap are often a fatal mutation. But many small changes over countless generations (and we're talking billions of years here) will lead to extremely big changes. What we conveniently call 'species' are snapshots in time. Snapshots of genes traveling and changing; some gene-set combinations are successful; others disappear. All change over time; and there is nothing to prevent them from changing under the pressure of a changing environment.

I contend you already have accepted evolution; you just haven't realised the scope of your acceptance yet.

behonest: you have a problem of scale. You talk of thousands of years, I talk of billions. I do not understand why you expect to see species totally change in, what, 5000 years?

Oh, wait, you also think Jin is witty. Never mind.

Ymmo: You are right of course. Okay, millions of years. Many millions, even when we allow for moderate complexity. Still a far cry from the last paltry 5000-odd years of human history.

Mike M: Not only a problem of scale, but also of numbers. You seem to expect to see evolution in individuals (given your running example).

LeslieAnn: Good for you! I don't know of many who are willing to look at what is there and change their mind. It can't have been an easy process, especially since your faith is involved in some ways. I have read dr. Collins book (and CS Lewis' Mere Christianity, which caused him to convert). I do not agree with them on several obvious points; but his work as a geneticist is fantastic.

Answer 1

I would not call it "micro evolution" I'd call it adaptation.

Here's the rub. Genesis isn't clear, and it doesn't need to be. The gist is quite simple - God did it. Now we want to argue and clamor over how He did it and how long He took to do it.

I can envision God taking less than a millisecond to create the entire universe. I can also envision God taking a million years to perfect one grain of sand. Because God exists outside of time, time is meaningless to God.

So honestly, what does it matter if evolution is true or not? It doesn't effect my day to day living, and it doesn't effect God's plans of salvation for us. Evolution has never sought to explain the origin of life, nor will it ever.

Yes, this is a change from my earlier position. See? I can change. ((AZ))

Answer 2

Nice question:-)

I can NOT stand it when people make comments like the one above me - a cow will never become a zebra. Of course it won't!!! The organisms on earth are all on a path, they're not interchangeable. If you make assertions like this, it's obvious that you don't understand evolutionary theory, and it's really hard to take anything else you say seriously.

There are many organisms that we can trace back through the evolutionary record. My favorite is cetaceans (whales). Look at the following websites if you think there's no proof for evolution. The second one has pictures of every whale ancestor back to when they were on land:

http://www7.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/data/2001/11/01/html/ft_20011101.4.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_cetaceans

But I'm sure some of you will find a way to dispute this as well.


EDIT: So many people do not understand species concepts. I don't blame them, it's difficult and outside our regular realm of thinking. But basically, there are many different theories about what defines a new species. One theory says that any animal that can reproduce viable offspring is the same species. Basically, speciation is very fluid, and when animals are under stress they typically hybridize - interbreed - and become what we could consider a new species. During periods of abundance, they typically diversify. The more diversity, the greater chance that some will survive under environmental stress. So your bit about species being a "snapshot" is very spot-on, and I really like the way you put it:-)

Answer 3

I'm an atheist, but I just wanted to mention, in my experience, theists presented with this sort of argument usually concede that an organism's genes do represent its biological nature, but claim that the genes are constructed in such a way that changes beyond a certain scale will invariably result in a nonviable organism. In other words, they believe in a sort of 'invisible barrier', unique for each species, beyond which that species can never evolve. While no such invisible barrier has been observed in the real world, at the same time humans have not been around long enough to observe evolution on a scale that would disprove this barrier. Thus, we atheists usually have to reinforce our arguments by pointing out that the invisible barrier is effectively a God of the Gaps argument.

So, there you go, that's how I, at least, expect the theists to respond to this question (if they respond at all).

Answer 4

Forgive me for being a smartarse, and a nitpick, but you have a problem of scale, too. You should be talking of millions of years, not billions.
Earth itself is only 4,5 billions of years old. The oldest rocks which have been found so far date to about 3.8 to 3.9 billion years ago.
The earliest signs of life on earth (supported by credible evidence) have been the discovery of fossil colonies of single-celled microscopic organisms dating to 3.5 billion years ago in Australia and South Africa.
The first "proper" many-cell organisms developed around 500 million years go (invertebrae), the beginning of the era we call Paleozoic.

Okay, I'll quite being a know-it-all about now. ;)
I like your question, though, so have a star! ;)

Answer 5

To those who think you've never seen a transitional fossil. Are your bones an exact replica of your parents bones, or do they differ in the slightest? All living things are a step in this transition we call evolution.

Side notes: Evolution has nothing to do with what a species wants. Only with what happens to keep it alive long enough to it to reproduce. There are fish that do come out of the water and crawl around. Ever hear of the mudskipper?

Answer 6

I finished a book last night, by Francis Collins, who headed up the Human Genome Project.

It was fascinating and personally jolting to me as he explained scientific observation of evolution in his field and other scientific disciplines. He is also a Christian believer. As a result of what I read (and plan to re-read until I'm pretty sure I really understand it) I am going to have to open my thinking up concerning evolution. Formerly I considered evolution as a belief espoused by atheists to support atheism, rather than a considered belief/proven by scientific observation. (my beliefs were fostered in circles where the scopes "monkey" trial was an inflammatory issue)

I have no idea if there is anything besides its DNA that gives a mouse its attributes, beyond believing that God used its DNA to "create" its mousy-ness.

I am going to have to continue to read, reflect and pray about some things that I thought were "settled", but which are in need of much closer scrutiny. This is going to be a huge challenge because my educational strengths were not in science/mathematics/physics. This dash of intellectual "cold water" that has me shivering doesn't threaten my faith, it just calls my paradigm of ideas into question. I'm in need of an intellectual "tune-up".

I have been trained, in the past, to believe that evolution could not be the way in which God allowed life to develop. That only an act of specific creation "fit" with belief as a Christian. When I got up yesterday morning I never expected to see a need to examine evolution for myself. This need doesn't impede/threaten my relationship to God through Jesus Christ. It just means that I need to seek truth.

I know my answer rambles, but I am struggling to express some new thoughts and that kind of process doesn't lend itself to succinct brevity.

Answer 7

Could be because all those who believe God created everything in 6 days are called Creationists.

Answer 8

They have yet to provide a mechanism that would stop small changes from continuing to add up to create larger changes over time. Unless you consider the bible a mechanism.

Answer 9

I absolutely have a problem with scale. There are logical limits to things. If one week I run a mile in 10 minutes and I work at it, maybe the next week I can run a mile in 9 minutes. If I work at it, I will never run a mile in 1 minute though.

There is a pool of genes for mice. The genes are different in the offspring, because it gets one set from the dad and one from the mom. Millions of generations later, we will still have the same pool of genes, but they will be mixed up differently.

You are not describing evolution.
You are describing genetics and calling it evolution.

Answer 10

I contend you're wrong. Why would a fish ever need to crawl out of the water to become anything else but a fish? It's already in an environment quite suitable for its survival. What "environmental" pressure would account for any such event?