Could you please make me understand this generalizing?

Question

If put myself in Israeli's shoes and see things from Israeli's view I do understand all this self defense and security, precautions etc.. I refer to paperback's question about tough checkpoints.

What selfdefense or precaution got to do with giving people a hard time (mistreatment) at checkpoints? Why is there a collective punishment? I do understand security/precaution reasons, but why are ordinary people are mistreated?

"Moneymaker" may say again that "ordinary people" can be terrorists. Well, he might be right. They can. But should you not give anybody the benefit of the doubt first?

Why do have pregnant women give birth at checkpoints? Why are people beaten up for no reason? Why are ambulances being put on hold? Unexpected closure of checkpoints etc?

Why are is the Israelis army acting so rude?

Please do not get me wrong. I am against violence in general. I do not support any violence act not matter where it is coming from.

edit paperback and moneymaker: I thank you for your answers. But - If generalizing would be right, every man and woman would be in jail, because MEN and WOMEN murdered somebody. But not ALL men and women are murderes. I do know that it is a difficult situation and I also take into consideration that Israelis are "just humans". But so far more Palistinians got killed than Israelis. Am I right? Please let me know if I am wrong.

Answer 1

The answer is because the common Palestinian person is a threat to zion.

The question becomes, "what is the threat?" It is not the threat of a bomb, a gun, or a knife. The common person is a witness and the treatment they receive from the IDF is intended to scare the Palestinian people into being quiet. The greatest threat to zion, is that the truth be known.

Worldluv
I agree with you entirely.

In the Australian news forums, I started out with the intension of study and learning what this was all about. Later on, I would have arguments with zionists as a result of my studies. Months later I would discover, that all of the facts I was bringing to the table (which zionists denied) were in fact common knowledge in ersatz israel. I mean, these facts where in the zionist newspapers every day.

Sometimes after months of arguments, my point would be proved by an israeli newspaper story. Several months later, when the topic rose again, the zionists would still be carrying on with their original story.

Just the other week I asked one zionist to tell me why southern European people had a claim to Palestinian land. He could not give me an answer. He responded several times but he was unable to give me an answer to my direct question. He kept trying to change direct, and I kept stating my question. Finally another zionist answered for him, saying the reason why, is that the southern Europeans were Jewish. If sharing the same religion with another group endowed you with their possessions, Bush would have converted to Islam.

If you go back and look at this forum, you will see the same village idiots with their same disproven arguments. I have no doubt as to why. zionists are brainwashed.

Answer 2

hi, I even have 2 observations: a million) Suicide bombers are available in somewhat some a while, sexes, shape and sizes. have been I a soldier at any verify think approximately those warm spots i could be very traumatic and traumatic to boot. 2) precis punishment for many using faults of a few has been in human nature for a while. In historic Rome if a slave killed his grasp, each slave in the companion and babies replace into positioned to dying; in my u . s . one lunatic shot 15 ladies at a tech college in Montreal and all of us have been given punished around the board with draconian gun regulations even however the homicide fee is 550 in line with twelve months out of 32 million and ninety 9.5% of gun proprietors are to blame; some young babies are reckless drivers so all drivers below 25 years previous pay triple the coverage rates for automobiles and so on. for this reason your subject isn't unique with know to something of the international in the dept of collective punishment. That pronounced, I somewhat think of that that's significant handle those with kindness, even whilst doing secure practices artwork and verify factor accountability. it may desire to correctly pay off in the long-term and in line with possibility save their lives sooner or later if Palestinian workers are taken care of decently and respectfully. In somewhat practise I had in this verify factor subject years in the past we've been steered to be agency while mandatory yet polite to boot. Mike ok

Answer 3

HI H
you always amaze me with you question and your arguments. According to your question, i agree with you 100% and i have this question on my mined since i was little, there are so Meany Y's in this would want to be answer right to make this world much better for living.
therefor, in Israels situations, they think that they are the chosen ones by god and the rest they are useless "cockroach's", because they think in that way , so it does not matter if they are treated right or so what ever.
and this people any way they do not have mercy in their hart "it is god given".
i hope i get close to answering this question

Answer 4

This is for 'worldluv'

You may be 'getting tired' of this forum, but I am getting tired of you.

No matter how much evidence is posted as to how Hamas, and the other groups largely supported by Palestinians claim they are out to destroy Israel, it's the Israelis you bash!

So 'worldluv' why don't you enlighten us all? You imagine you are the prime minister of a tiny country, with terrorists constantly trying to smuggle bombs in, and with your citizens being killed every week by kassam rockets launched from Gaza.

Now, how would YOU protect your citizens?

No Jew or Israeli here has defended bad behaviour; on the contrary, I have read comments from paperback-writer and several others condemning it - perhaps you did not read those?

But you have never, presumably, lived in Israel so really, what even qualifies YOU to preach to Israeli people over their security checks? If they make a wrong call and Israelis die - what is that to you?

Answer 5

It is simple. Proper check up of a person or a car takes time, thus the delays. Ambulances are delayed and checked because it became common issue that terrorists try to smuggle arms and terrorists in the ambulances. Terrorists are posing as sick people or worse yet, there is a real sick person and explosives and/or terrorist at the same time. So if ambulance is stopped and checked palestinians can show the reporters real sick person in genuine need for treatment being delayed. Some wemen fake being pregnant and try to smuggle explosives as well or as few months ago a woman who was 8 months pregnant was cought with explosive belt on her body on the way to commit suiside terrorist atack. All this said - we Israelis are people and among us there are those who can not handle power given to them without abusing it. Just like someone before me already said. Still, I would say that all in all Israeli army stands on very high moral level. I know this because I served in Israeli army and saw both good and bad behaviour. Major point though that while cases of abuse of power do occur they are not in line with the policy but directly against it. Another major point is that in many cases things are staged by palestinians themselves. such as claiming people who got killed in trafic accidents as murdered by soldiers or staging murders just like case with Muhamad Al-Dura

Answer 6

For starters, I would point out that most of the stricter check points are those for entering into Israel proper. These are essentially border crossings, and Israel really doesn't have any obligations to let people in. The USA for example doesn't readily let Mexicans in, hence the propensity for illegal immigration. Thus I would say that 'collective punishment' is innaccurate in this case. People are not being punished, they are being given stringent security measures when they voluntarily try to enter Israel.
What exactly does it mean to give people the benefit of the doubt? Should each individual be given one free go? Cause let's think a second: if that individual is a suicide bomber, then s/he will only have one go. Kinda invalidates the point of security, because one can't learn from experience that someone is dangerous and then stop him. Therefore a more global view is neccessary. Simply, the Palestinians had an easier time at the border crossings once upon a time, and since that led to a large amount of terror, Israel had to crack down and make it tougher. The simple fact is that many kilos of explosives and weapons have been stopped at checkpoints. Included in this are 'pregnant' women who apparently were going to give birth to C4. Ambulances with confused EMTs who when they ran into a building to save someone, they grabbed his weapon stash instead by mistake. Even babies have been found being used as vessels for weapons/explosives smuggling. In effect, Israel is giving the benefit of the doubt and saying that the majority of people who go through are okay, and thus leave the checkpoints open most of the time. If they so chose, Israel could completely close the 'border' and allow only citizens through, and that is perfectly legal. Lastly, I guarantee you that if terror and explosives/arms smuggling stopped completely, the checkpoints would be relaxed to a very lenient standard. No Israeli soldier wants to be stationed there, and Israel certainly doesn't have any love for them. If terror would disappear, so would everything you complain about.

Answer 7

I'm getting weary of this forum. It doesn't seem to matter what facts are provided, what EYEWITNESS accounts I share, the Jews on this board continue to defend the indefensible and try to justify abominable behavior from IDF soldiers at checkpoints.

Security is one thing. What happens DAILY (note: not isolated incidents) is harassment, belittling, and unjust actions at these checkpoints.

Why do soldiers do this? Well, the well-known psychologist Zimbardo did a fascinating experiment at Stanford University. They randomly assigned students to be either guards or prisoners and had them live out their roles in a prison built in the basement for this experiment.

It was to last 2 weeks but had to be cancelled after only 6 days because the 'guards' became sadistic and the 'prisoners' depressed. The power the 'guards' had ended up turning to engage in evil acts -- and these were normal, everyday university students!!!

Clearly, the IDF soldiers have too much power. They act without impunity - VERY rarely are there repercussions for their wrongdoing. Since the Israeli government is not taking the responsibility, the international community must put way more pressure on them.

GREEN EYED - First of all, personal insults are not the way to go.

Alright, if I were Prime Minister in the situation you outlined, I would look at the reasons behind why my country is being attacked. What injustices are being committed by my country against them? What are we doing that would incite these behaviors? Realizing that my country is oppressing the people, breaking all sorts of international laws, and basically putting these people in an open air 'prison', then I would not be surprised my country is being attacked.

Therefore, to respect ALL human beings, AND to ensure my citizens are safe, I would change the treatment of those attacking us. I would follow international laws, I would treat them with respect and dignity - basically the way I would want to be treated. By doing so, I would take away the reason for them attacking us.

I don't know why you are not seeing what I'm trying to get at. Hopefully now I have explained it enough for you to realize that I'm wanting peace and security for BOTH Jews and Palestinians.

Answer 8

"but why are ordinary people are mistreated?"

Because ordinary people are suicide bombers. There is no profile for a terrorists--it could be me or you or 'president' bush. If the Palestinians want to stop having to deal with checkpoints, they should get control of their militants.

If we give people the benefit of the doubt, people get blown up. Therefore, nobody gets the benefit of the doubt.

Pregnant women give birth at checkpoints because terrorists have imitated pregnant women with bombs for babies. Ambulances are put on hold because terrorists smuggle bombs in them in sick people's stretchers. Checkpoints are closed when Israeli intelligence gets any strain of information that could bring harm to anyone.

Why are the Palestinians acting so ridiculous? They complain about Israeli "oppression" and all this "unnecessary security" yet they elect a bunch of terrorists to their government who in the past year have been worse than the Israeli "occupiers!"

I don't support violence either, and it is terrible what happens at the checkpoints. But what happens happens for a reason. When a solution is reached, the checkpoints will be removed. When the intifada started, checkpoints were added. There is a pattern.

Answer 9

It is not ok to mistreat people, but you have to consider the following:
On ynetnews.com there was a report a few months back which described the efforts of two pregnant women to become suicide bombers. Another report talked about children being transported to Israeli hospitals on gurneys, only there are explosives under the children...
My own sister in law was blown up by a Palestinian who crossed a checkpoint in order to work in Israel...

Answer 10

I wouldn't dream of assuming that every single Israeli soldier is a little angel. I'm sure that in every army, in every nation, there are soldiers who behave bloody badly. Israel is a country like any other.

And of course there is no excuse if some soldiers behave horribly - I don't condone this, in any situation, either in Israel or anywhere else.

I hear from Israeli friends currently in the army, and those who have served in the past, that they are always instructed to behave with respect and decency. That is the ideal. I gather that many live up to it.

But I guess, inevitably, there are some who have lost family and friends to Palestinian terrorism, and maybe just as Palestinians behave badly through anger and grief, well, so will some Israelis. You can't claim that either side is perfect, because neither is.

You mention 'giving people the benefit of the doubt' - I guess Israelis can answer this better than I can. But if I may draw to your attention: the Israelis do give people the benefit of the doubt. But then take the case of the orthodox Jew who travelled freely and was in fact a Palestinian in disguise - he detonated a bomb and killed several innocent Israelis.

So the Israelis have to be super-cautious and put the safety of innocent Israelis BEFORE the hurt feelings of Palestinians at checkpoints. Any country would do the same.

EDIT

No, that is not logical 'h':). Look: let's say that in a country, all the terrorist acts so far were perpetrated by people with red hair. Every single one! Who will be stopped and treated suspiciously at the checkpoints - red haired people! You wouldn't stop everyone who had hair - which is what you are saying when you ask wouldn't all men and women be in jail! Do you see what I mean? :)

MR X - great, great answer.

EDIT TO B - so all Israeli soldiers are 'pigs', are they? How many have you met? How many have you ever spoken with? How many?

Or are you basing this 'informed' opinion on youtube?

'Cause you know damn well we can ALL find stuff on youtube about the other 'side' behaving appallingly.

EDIT TO MIMI

Name one thing I said that is 'hateful' - go on, one thing. I have been totally polite. I respect 'h' a lot and I always find her polite, open minded, and interesting.

Meanwhile, B calls all Israeli soldiers 'pigs' - but I'M the one being, in your view 'hateful'???