Catholics: An Atheist has asked me a *very* troubling question - how do you defend yourselves?

Question

Here is what the person said:
"There are tons and tons of fake relics. It seems that every one that is examined actually dates to the Middle ages. So there is certainly a history of the church lying about things and like it or not the Catholics had all the information that your faith is based on throughout the entire Middle Ages. So that calls into question anything associated with it. "

Pretty damning huh? I know what this person is saying is true because I have researched it personally - faked relics such as the shroud of Turin drew scores of pilgrims and cash to the churches that hosted them.

Now I know personally that Jesus Christ is Lord of the universe, so I am not in doubt about that, but don't the Catholic Church's actions give the whole religion a black eye?

So how do you defend your Church when non-Catholics bring up facts such as these?

"God is light and in him there is no darkness at all."
1 John 1:5

Answer 1

You cannot condemn an entire Faith for the wrong actions of human beings. By that logic, Protestants are wrong because of false teaching and greediness of preachers, Muslims are wrong because of extremists...Humans are sinners, and as long as humans are involved, corruption will be too. That does not, however, make the Catholic Church any less the Church it was when Christ handed it over to St. Peter.

Answer 2

I haven't researched relics, but I'm sure there were instances of fake relics. What I ask is did your friend equally look at all of the genuine relics?

I think he's also got a beef with the Church and is using this as "evidence" of corruption. He's also saying that it was the Church that had ALL information on the Christian faith, and so if She "lied" about relics, then what else has She "lied" about, so basically you cannot trust anything about your faith, which inevitably will lead you to atheism.

Nice way to take down your entire belief system.

Have your friend do some fair, honest research next time.

Answer 3

Relics are Biblical:

Mark 15:43; John 19:38 - Joseph of Arimathea sought Christ's dead body instead of leaving it with the Romans. Joseph gave veneration to our Lord's body.

Mark 16:1; Luke 24:1 - the women came to further anoint Christ's body even though it had been sealed in the tomb.

John 19:39 - Nicodemus donated over one hundred pounds of spices to wrap in Jesus' grave clothes. This is also veneration of our Lord's body.

Matt. 9:21; Mark 5:28 - the woman with the hemorrhage just sought the hem of Christ's cloak and was cured. This shows that God uses physical things to effect the supernatural.

Acts 19:11-12 - Paul's handkerchiefs healed the sick and those with unclean spirits. This is another example of physical things effecting physical and spiritual cures.

Acts 5:15 - Peter's shadow healed the sick. This proves that relics of the saints have supernatural healing power, and this belief has been a part of Catholic tradition for 2,000 years.

Rev. 6:9 - the souls of the martyrs are seen beneath the heavenly altar. Their bones are often placed beneath altars in Catholic churches around the world.

2 Kings 13:21 - Elisha's bones bring a man back to life. The saints' bones are often kept beneath the altars of Catholic churches and have brought about supernatural cures throughout the Christian age.

Rom. 13:7; Phil. 2:25-29; Heb. 3:3; 1 Pet. 2:7 – we are taught to honor the people of God and in 1 Cor. 4:16-17; 1 Cor. 11:1-2; Phil. 3:17; 1 Thess. 1:6; 2 Thess. 3:7; Heb. 6:12; Heb. 13:7; James 5:10-11 – we are reminded to imitate them. Keeping relics of the saints serves both to honor and imitate their heroic faith in Christ (just as keeping articles of deceased loved ones helps us honor and imitate them).

If your friend chooses not to believe this, that's your friend's problem. It should not concern you.

Your friend says, "There are tons and tons of fake relics."

Examples?

your friend says, "It seems that every one that is examined actually dates to the Middle ages. So there is certainly a history of the church lying about things"

Why does the fact many relics date to the Middle Ages debunk the idea of relics?

Your friend says, "and like it or not the Catholics had all the information that your faith is based on throughout the entire Middle Ages."

Catholicism has always possessed the Fullness of the Truth, but that does not mean those who make up the Church understand the Fullness of the Truth. The Church has always, and continues to, develop an increased understanding of the Fullness of the Truth as time goes on.

There is a difference between possessing the Fullness of hte Truth, and fully understanding It.

Your friend says, "So that calls into question anything associated with it. " Disbelief in relics does not constitute proof that other elements of Doctrine are fallacious.

Your friend and you (if you really do think your friend's comments are "damning") need to develop a better understanding of what relics are and WHY they are. I hope the Biblical references I provided helped.

Answer 4

I'm not sure how "damning" your friend's quote is by itself -- he, or she, is making a rather broad and sweeping claim and you are apparently taking it at face value. What was the source? What was your source of information about the Turin shroud, for that matter?

I do not agree that the practice by some of faking relics (and yes, it's a matter of record that it occurred -- in the Middle Ages, for heaven's sake, we've all become a little less credulous since then) "calls into question anything associated" with the Church. Nor did the odious practice of selling indulgences prior to the reformation. Nor does the recent priest scandal.

These are human beings we're talking about (2000 years' worth of them) -- no less inclined to weakness and concupiscence than anyone.

Find me one religion whose adherents have been above reproach throughout its history, devoid of scandal and sinfulness (public or private). Show it to me, point it out. That, or turn your research toward all Christian denominations or other belief systems for that matter, and when you find unpretty instances of human failing in their histories too, do make the assertion to their adherents that everything about what they believe is called into question because of it.

The truth is that the Catholic Church is so big, and has such a long history, that it is an easy target. But most of us can make the distinction between the weaknesses of men and the truth of our faith.

You have presented nothing to me for which I need to defend myself or the Church. My eyes are wide open, and I know the history of my Church far better than you do. I also know the truth of the Gospel. If mankind (Catholics included) weren't inclined to sin, and sin big, we wouldn't need a Savior would we?

Answer 5

I do not see how fake relics can be damning-mistaken about their historicity perhapsor even intended deceptions by the cynical or greedy-but in no way does this problem disprove the belief in the resurrection of the just and the Incarnation of God in Christ and the sanctity of the bodies of the saved on which the veneration of relics rests.

There actually is much evidence(apart from the disputed cabon datingtest of a contaminated part of the cloth) for the authenticity of the Shoud of Turin

The Catholic fullness of Christianity does not depend on the uprightness of its ministers but on the veracity of its founder,inspirer and Everlasting Head,Jesus Christ. None of these attacks touch the doctrines of the Catholic Church.

If the relics of the cross, crown of thorns,etc were not real or provable, the reality of salvation by the incarnation, death and resurrection of Christ is still true and real and dependable and so is His promise that "The gates of hell will not prevail aagainst[the keys of the Church with Peter as Steward of Christ]"

Answer 6

A magnificent passage in the bible will answer your question completely:

The words of Christ:

"Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed." John 20:29

Faith is the requirement for belief.
Our loving Lord while physical dying on the cross still showed love for us:

"Forgive them Father, for they not know what they do."
Luke 23:34

Concerning relics:

Once the media becomes involved the whole issue of relics is watered-down.
Sadly, unless the church (Pope) should come forward and announce the authenticity the particular relic remains a mystery.
The latter is why the Church places a large amount of effort both historically and scientifically to prevent a fake/fraud.
Very rarely did the church ever stand forward and announce that any relics are authentic, they simply do not know.
Finally, the Pope is vicar on Earth, he must make this announcement.
The latter is where the clause of infallibility is performed.

Answer 7

Not too long ago the Dead Sea Scrolls were found dating back to Biblical times. I have dealt with person's making light of the church world. Do you remember when the woman who was caught in the very act of adultery and was brought before JESUS to be stoned? Do you remember what he said? He gave silence for a long period of time. Then he said let him that is without sin cast the first stone. Sometimes the best thing to give in return in a situation like that is silence. You being a Believer in the Lord God above and his son JESUS Christ needs no explanation. No matter if you was given die hard proof you will not change someone Else's mind about God. They have their opinion and you have yours. In the end when they meet their fate then will they believe. Jesus never had to defend his actions or his belief, it was take it or leave it. That is what I would suggest. Let people know where you stand and if they can not accept that and the way you live your life, let them be.

Answer 8

The marketing of religious relics was indeed a very lucrative fraud in the Middle ages. I for one, am not impressed by them. But fortunately, my faith does not rest on the existence of relics.

I'm not sure I would lump the Shroud of Turin into that category. Before you do, you should read "A Doctor at Calvary" by Dr. Pierre Barbet, as well as the minority opinion of the scientists who performed the study in the 1980's -- the opinion that never got any publicity (example: the C14 tests are meaningless, because the entire shroud had been contaminated by smoke in a fire in Turin -- the fire which created the burned corner which was repaired when the lead of the box it was in melted.)

The scripture upon which the Catholic church is based dates back to at least 450 AD in the form of the Latin Vulgate, and many of the available source materials from which it was derived date back even further. The writings of the early church fathers which are rejected by most protestants are also available.

Given that your questioner was calling into question evidence that was extant before the protestant reformation, his critique is not specifically at Catholics, but at Christianity in general.

As a catholic, my faith is not influenced by the abuses of the church in the middle ages. Those mistakes were recognized and subsequently corrected. Many of the points that Martin Luther objected to are no longer extent. Given that the Catholic church is the ONLY Christian congregation that can trace its history unbroken back to Christ, and given that Christ declared that he would build his church upon Peter, and that the gates of Hell shall not prevail upon it, it occurs to me that any other congregation has denied the validity of that prophesy.

Protestant denial of this uncomfortable fact has led many protestants to invent amazing accusations of heretical catholic practices that have no basis in reality. The rhetoric is second only to the Islamic rewriting of history to justify the fantastic claims of the Quran.

Answer 9

Not all of the relic hunting was done from greed. Many truly believed they were Holy.. It was a barbaric time.
EVERY group in history has done some rotten things. Protestants burned Catholics, Catholics burnt Protestants..If you look at history NO group is innocent! Does that mean that no good comes from it? NO.. Look at the contributions from EVERY group. Do we need to constantly examine and check our beliefs, yes. I am a Protestant, but I hold nothing against the Catholic Church. Look at how people bought locks of Elvis Presley's hair.. All groups are made of humans.

Answer 10

Well no, such accusations should not reflect negatively on the church as the Church does NOT approve relics. You must remember that the veracity of the Church rests on the veracity of Christ as it is Christ that created the Church and not men as would be the case with Protestant churches. the only way the Church could be accused of lying is if they officially approved particular relics that are false and they do not.

In Christ
Fr. Joseph

Answer 11

I'm an atheist and here's what I think you should say.
"You know what? So what if modern science can't prove these relics are real. My religion gives me hope and comfort and I feel it makes me a better person."
The truth is, if you really truly believe in something...it doesn't matter how "damning" something is. And you don't need to make excuses for your beliefs.