Which of these verses state that Michael is Jesus Christ?

Question

God's inspired Word mentions Michael five times - as

1. " one of the foremost princes" ( Dan.10:13, NWT )

2. " the prince of ( Daniel's ) people ( Dan. 10:21, NWT )

3. " the great prince who is standing in behalf of the sons of ( Daniel's ) people" (Dan 12:1, NWT )

4. " the archangel" who " had the difference with the Devil and was disputing about Moses' body " but " did not dare to bring a judgment against him in abusive terms " ( Jude 9, NWT ) and

5. a participant in heavenly conflict when " Michael and his angels battled with the dragon " ( Rev. 12:7, NWT ).

Help me out because I do not see any of them to state that Michael is Jesus Christ. I understand that who is familiar with a complicated Watchtower argument might reach that conclusion that Michael is Jesus Christ, and also if one does not want to be kicked out from their organization for not agreeing.

The Society also turns for support to another verse that does not use the name Michael but says that " the Lord himself will descend from heaven with commanding call, with an archangel's voice and with God's trumpet"
1 Thess 4:16, NWT

But if using archangel's voice makes the Lord an archangel, then having God's trumpet makes him God - even though the Watchtower leaders would have us look at only the first part of the verse.

Line Dancer: Cannot you just answer if you can? This what your organization is teaching.

JC: I am not afraid to answer any questions, but it is a habit of JWs to twist the words so I do not engage anymore with private messages. Moises_Frias takes his opportunities to use private letters and irritate people, and I have seen " you people " to make hints that " through the private conversations it is evident that sucha and such does not have any idea of the Bible etc"

So if you ask a question from me, use your points and ask it here in an open column and make sure I also see the question.

No, private conversations with people who are full of ignorance.

Line dancer: I can deside who I keep contact with. JWs are so rude to me and to my friends so why would I use my free time in priavte conversations that are fruitless. I rather give my time to people who are respectful others.

AND: No JW has straighten me out!

Moises_Frias: Yes, that is why it is not good thing to be too religious so that you do not mistake God as a man or and angel. Ring the bell?

Line Dancer: I am proud of my friends. Together we are the body of Christ.

Answer 1

Hi Nina.

Thanks for the opportunity to answer and to address this important issue, the TRUE identity of the Lord Jesus Christ.

First off, I would encourage any JW's who are sincere seekers of God to check out the link to my previous answer on the same subject, which user Joyfilled has kindly provided. I hope that you will give serious consideration to the points made both there, and those which I am about to bring to your attention. May you truly be as the noble Bereans, searching the scriptures thoroughly to determine which teachings are of God, and which are not. May the Lord graciously guide you into all HIS truth.

For the sake of this discussion, let us suppose that the Watchtower teaching regarding the pre-incarnate, pre-existent identity of the Lord Jesus Christ IS true. That Jesus was (and, according to JW theology, now is) the archangel, Michael.

If that were the case, the Watchtower adherents would STILL be guilty of disobedience before God, in PRACTICE, if not in theology. The Bible is very clear that the Lord Jesus shares WORSHIP with the Father :

As Revelation 5:13 & 14 shows, "Blessing and honor and GLORY and power be to Him who sits on the throne, AND TO THE LAMB, FOREVER AND EVER! AMEN." (caps for emphasis).

Although distinction of PERSONS is clearly made here, there is, however, NO DISTINCTION made in either the english translation or the original Greek between the GLORY given to the Father and the Son. If any JW can prove otherwise, please feel free to do so.

Consider also, Isaiah 42:8 -

"I am YHWH, that is My name; And My GLORY I will not give to another, nor my praise to carved images." (caps for emphasis)

So why does the Lamb receive GOD'S glory, Witnesses? Has Jehovah changed His mind?

Indeed, it is the Father's will that the Son shares His glory.

John 5:22 & 23 -

"For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son, that all should honor the Son JUST AS THEY HONOR THE FATHER. HE WHO DOES NOT HONOR THE SON DOES NOT HONOR THE FATHER WHO SENT HIM." (caps for emphasis)

Even secular history attests to the fact that the early Christians sang songs of WORSHIP to Christ -

Consider the letter of Pliny the Younger to the Roman emperor, Trajan, which states that the Christians "...were accustomed to meet on a fixed day before dawn and sing responsively a hymn to Christ as to a god" -

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/pliny1.html

As recently as 1961, even the NWT rendered "proskuneo" in Hebrews 1:6 as "worship". Enough said.

Regarding 1 Thessalonians 4:16 -

The voracious proof-texters of the Watchtower regularly seize upon this scripture in a bid to support their teaching that Jesus is Michael. However, one text does not necessarily a doctrine make. As we shall see...

In Matthew 25, Jesus shares with us the parable of the virgins. Of course, this parable is a clear illustration concerning the Lord's second coming.

Now we know that the bridegroom referred to in this parable is a picture of the Lord Himself. The Lord previously refers to Himself as such in Matthew 9:15. John the Baptist also clearly intimates that Jesus is the bridegroom (John 3:28-30).

Having established the identity of the bridegroom as the returning Lord Jesus, let's turn our attention to Matthew 25:6 -

"AND AT MIDNIGHT A CRY WAS HEARD: 'BEHOLD, THE BRIDEGROOM IS COMING, GO OUT TO MEET HIM!" (caps for emphasis)

So, according to this scripture, the Lord Jesus DOES NOT herald His own return. SOMEONE ELSE DOES.

Who is that someone?

It is the archangel in 1 Thessalonians 4:16.

Please note that a trumpet is also sounded at the Lord's return. Who sounds that trumpet? The answer is in Revelation 11:15. It is the last of the seven angels before God's throne (Rev. 8:2), who arguably correspond with the SEVEN archangels of Jewish tradition, one of whom is Michael, "...ONE of the foremost princes" (Daniel 10:13, NWT. Emphasis mine)

So the voice of the (an?) archangel DOES NOT belong to Jesus. Not according to the Bible.

Regarding your comments, JC -

Jesus can quite legitimately refer to His Father as "the only true God" and "My God", because He is speaking from the position of HUMANITY as well as DEITY. Contrary to Watchtower teaching, even in resurrection and glorification, Christ is STILL human, and NOT an angel.

Consider this statement made by the glorified Lord Jesus FROM HEAVEN -

"I am the root and the OFFSPRING of David" (Revelation 22:16, caps mine). Incidentally, the Greek IS rendered in the PRESENT tense.

If Jesus is now an angel as the Watchtower teach, how could He possibly be the offspring of the man, David? Not to mention the fact that THROUGHOUT Revelation, Jesus REPEATEDLY refers to Himself as "Jesus Christ", and NEVER as Michael. The fact that Michael is mentioned by name elsewhere in Revelation, only adds strength to the argument that these are two distinct and separate persons, unlike the Father and the Son - who are distinct, BUT NOT SEPARATE - as I will show later.

John 1:18 - You quote very selectively re this verse, as is usually the case with JW's in general.

"No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, HE HAS DECLARED HIM." (caps for emphasis)

Indeed, no man has physically seen the invisible God in all of His glory, although YHWH HAS appeared in human form previously, according to Genesis chapter 18, for example. So, I suggest that your understanding of the Greek "horao", is somewhat superficial, here. The word can also mean "to perceive" in a sense beyond the mere visual.

The Lord Jesus is "the exact representation of (God's) very being" (i.e. God in the flesh, ref - Hebrews 1:3, NWT. Insert mine).

The primary way that Christ "explained" God was by His speech and conduct. Being the "exact representation" of God (not "a god") He was therefore able to boldly reply to Phillip, "He who has seen me HAS SEEN THE FATHER" (John 14:9). Pretty strong claim to deity, as far as I can see. Again, GOD IN THE FLESH.

When you only concentrate on HALF a verse, JC, it is no wonder that you arrive at erroneous conclusions.

Where in the Bible does it state God is a Trinity? There is, of course, no EXPLICIT statement of the "concept". However, there is a particular passage which, in my estimation, most strongly implies it.

In John 14:16 & 17, the Lord Jesus says that He will send the "parakletos" (incidentally, a Greek term only used of one other person in the NT - Christ, in 1 John 2:1), the Holy Spirit, to the disciples.

Having made this statement, He then proceeds to say, in verse 18, "I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you." Bear in mind that He has just said He will go away, and send someone else in His place.

But there's more -

Verse 23 -

"If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and WE will come to him, and make OUR home with him." (caps mine)

So Jesus says that not only will the Holy Spirit come to the TRUE believer, but also the Father AND Himself.

How do you explain that away?

In regard to your question, "Who has control over the Angels, Jesus or Michael? Because in the NT, it states that the Angels are Jesus and Michael's, but Jesus was given authority over all the angels."

In answer, a worldly army can be commanded by officers of DIFFERENT ranks at any given time, right? A captain OR a general can fulfill this function. If we are to apply your Watchtower reasoning further, we must ultimately conclude that Jehovah is Michael, by virtue of the fact that Jude 14 states -

"Look! JEHOVAH came with his holy myriads, to execute judgment against all..." (NWT, emphasis mine)

Of course, JC, your "logic" is faulty. Michael is NOT Jehovah, but Jesus IS. Revelation 12:7 OBVIOUSLY refers to an event different from Jude 14, which pertains to the Lord's second coming in judgement OF THE WORLD. Jude 14 actually bears a remarkable resemblance to Paul's writing in 2 Thessalonians 1:7 & 8 -

"...when the LORD JESUS is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God.." (emphasis mine).

Of course, Jude 14 & 1 Thessalonians 1:7 & 8 refer to both the same event, and the SAME PERSON, the Lord, Jehovah the Son. Unlike Revelation 12, which speaks of "war in heaven".

Jesus is the "First and the Last". This is a unique title which He shares with the Father (Isaiah 44:6, Revelation 1:17, 22:13). The Watchtower have made a futile attempt to dismiss this on grammatical grounds, by claiming that the Hebrew applied to YHWH in Isaiah has a different meaning from the Greek applied to Jesus in Revelation 1:17.

However - somewhat ironically - by attributing the speaking in Revelation 22:13 to the Father (Revelation - It's Grand Climax At Hand! Pg.316), they have applied a title to Him which is grammatically IDENTICAL to that given to Jesus in the same book. Even if some Witnesses are prepared to concede that Rev. 22:13 should be applied to Jesus (as most orthodox Christians do), then that still leaves them with the problem of what to do with Revelation 1:8, where the "Lord God" or "Jehovah God" (NWT) not only refers to Himself as "the Alpha and the Omega", but also, "the Almighty". Either way, the Witnesses - if they are to be honest in dealing with the scriptures - have no place to hide on this one.

Revelation is clear that both the Father and the Son share at least one unique and grammatically identical title.

May God be gracious to JW's. I'm praying for YOU people.

Carl. x

********EDIT*******

JC - In regard to 1 Corinthians 8:6, feel free to read Ray Goldsmith's response to JW apologist Greg Stafford re this issue, at the following link -

http://www.forananswer.org/

Click on "Apologists Bible Commentary" and then the 1 Corinthians 8:6 link.

Perhaps YOU would now care to address the points which I have made? Or how about the (I assume) JW that gave my answer a thumbs down?

If you can't answer, why not?

Answer 2

What in the world? I'm not even sure as to where to begin addressing this post of yours. It has so many errors that it will just take too long in order to address them. First and foremost we must understand [your position or the position of the person who told you this story] as to why do you or this person think that a created being such as an angel {Michael} is synonymous with Jesus who is refered to by his emissaries as the "word of G-d" and also in regards to the verses you have quoted how does it give us the indication that it is alluding to this idea, it does not allude to Micheal being the same as Jesus at all. This being one of our biggest hurdles in order for us to correctly address this kind of deceptive doctrine of yours so that you may understand the magnitude of it's error, but please continue reading! Next, according to your beginning statements "If Jesus was created by Jehovah" , Huh? You're showing us that you or this person who relayed this information to you has an issue in the way of understanding scriptures {to put it mildly} with the word of G-d, who [is] synonymous with his anointed=Yeshua which has always been with G-d because the word is G-d. LOL I must be melting some peoples brains out by now but I assure you that those who are his followers understand exactly what I have written. So, how can you say that G-d created the word if the word and G-d are one and has always been with him {G-d}. Without him nothing that was created was created, but all things were created by him thru him and for him? Search out these questions which I have posted and it will help you perhaps on the path to correctly interpreting the message of his emissaries and stay away from unsubstantiated fables which are not written.

Answer 3

Answer - none....

Nina can i say how wise of you not to engage in private posts with certain people - i tried to help one who was JW and nearly got drawn in to confusion - turned out he was using me to get reinstated. Keep up the good work for our Lord - may He bless you abundantly.

Esaw1 - can i answer your question 'what is NWT' - it's the JW bible - absolutely different from the Holy Bible read by Christians - hope this helps


EDIT: A note for Moises: I pray for the souls of those 700 lost people - how confused they are going to be - and how devastated when they discover the truth about Christ - God save these unfortunate ppl from lies and confusion.

Answer 4

In The King James Version Bible only two angels are named and they were and are Michael and Gabriel. Jesus Was, Is and forever will be The Son of The Living GOD. There is no other !!!!
I am not really familar with NWT at all...What is it ?

Answer 5

Michael the Archangel is mentioned in the OT. He is to be known as the MOST POWERFUL angel from God Almighty. The angel that led the battle of taking Satan and his followers out of heaven. Now here's something to think about. I don't know if Michael the Archangel is mentioned in the NT. Christ Jesus came down from heaven to man in the NT. So, when Christ Jesus came to be with man and Michael the Archangel is not mentioned from the time of Christ Jesus, could it be because then the MOST POWERFUL angel under God Almighty came down as Christ Jesus. I mean, how can there be both. Christ Jesus is the next to God Almighty and yet it says Michael the Archangel is the MOST POWERFUL angel under God. There is a connection. What do you say? Am I correct or mistaken?

O.K. I copied and pasted my answer from your previous question. I learn new stuff in Y/A.

Answer 6

        Well, I'm not now nor ever was JW, or even close; and, though I believe pre-Incarnate Jesus Christ was not ever a mere angel, I do believe that Michael the Archangel is also pre-Incarnate Jesus Christ.

        I believe that the term "Archangel" is only meant to signify charge over the host of angels and not that the position itself is held by a mere angel. I do connect 1Thes. 4:16 ("with the voice of the archangel") with Jude 1:9 ("Michael the archangel") to come to this identification between pre-Incarnate Jesus Christ and Michael the Archangel.

        I've been a staunch Seventh-day Adventist Christian all of my 50+ years of life. My church also teaches that same thing.

LineDancer:
>> Question for you: What scripture in the Bible specifically
>> says that Jesus is the Word?

        Is that supposed to be a difficult thing to prove? John 1:1-3,14 prove that Jesus Christ is the WORD.

God bless.

Answer 7

Excuse me, Nina.

Hey, JC, feel free to send me these questions and I'll be glad to answer them for you, that's if you really do want an answer, and aren't just asking them in a rhetorical fashion. I've read the ones listed in your response and I'm letting you know ahead of time that there is definitely another perspective, which you don't appear yet to understand about those statements Jesus made. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you are really open to hearing an answer that is consistent with other scripture (weighing scripture with scripture) and Biblical teaching. And, I'd be glad to inform you of them.

Answer 8

Very interesting question. Got me thinking much more. I once had readThess. and thought that JC was indeed the Archangel Michael but reading all the scripture you have pointed out there is no sound link. There is really no scripture that clearly says JC is the Archangel Michael.

To your question......there is no verse you mention that clearly states Michael and JC are one in being.

Answer 9

I agree, none of them. You have to study their own literature to come to the conclusion that Michael is Jesus Christ

Answer 10

Neither!

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 1 Thess. 4:16

"Voice of AN Archangel." "Voice of" is not and actual archangel.

For to which of the angels did He ever say:
“ You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You”?
And again:
“ I will be to Him a Father,
And He shall be to Me a Son”? Heb. 1:5

The watchtower is twisting Scripture and God magnifies His Word above His own Name...wouldn't want to be on the other end of that judgment!

I will worship toward Your holy temple,
And praise Your name
For Your lovingkindness and Your truth;
For You have MAGNIFIED Your WORD above all Your NAME. Ps. 138:2

Answer 11

Dear Nina,

Please take a look at the excellent answer Carlpartis gave to Suzanne's similar question 3 months ago. When she chose his answer as Best, she commented that she wished she could have given him 20 stars and 100 points.
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=AnagyLzD9s.jvb6ahhp6HFHsy6IX;_ylv=3?qid=20070829061425AAF3liG&show=7#profile-info-2df62b129c1a848c5b5f53b87e8f9620aa

Edit:
3 Thumbs Down within 24 hours. I wonder whether they are because of my name, the link I provided, Suzanne's name (I didn't say which Suzanne) or Carlpartis's name??? I did add the word "Excellent". I guess I could have just said "Answer with a captial A!"

For His glory,
JOYfilled