Question for Anti-Trinitarians...?

Question

In John 8:58, when quizzed about how He (Jesus) has special knowledge of Abraham, Jesus replies,
"Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I Am"

His audience understood exactly what He was claiming about Himself.
"So they took up stones to throw at him; but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple" (John 8:59).

Why would they want to stone Jesus?
What does He mean by "I Am"?

Answer 1

In the Old Testament when Moses asked God, "Who should I say you are? What is your name?" God said, "I Am that I Am." Jesus was also identifying himself as God; and one with the Father.

To those who say Jesus never claimed to be God, wrong! He said, "I and the Father are ONE."

The Father God said (paraphrased), "Behold my son Jesus, ALL authority in heaven and earth belongs to Him."

To those who say there is no such thing as a trinity, how do you get past the hundreds of references in both the Old & New Testament of: Messiah, Jesus, The Father, Jehovah, and the Holy Ghost or Holy Spirit? The point is, all three are part of ONE Godhead or "trinity." They are not distinct persons. And herein lies the problem of our understanding as humans. God cannot be described in limited human terms like PERSONS. Just as Jesus could ascend into heaven, defying the laws of physics and gravity, so GOD can be ONE and at the same time three "persons." So, in my opinion, ONE God, three parts.

Answer 2

Jesus was telling the Pharisees that he had a pre-human existance in heaven, that is, he had existed before Abraham. It was for this reason that they wanted to kill him. They held that a person who claimed to come from heaven was blaspheming.

The translation "I AM" is inaccurate.

First of all, in Exodus 3:14 (where some translations read "I AM THAT I AM") is literally translated as "I will be what I will be". In fact, the footnote on Exodus 3:14 in many Bibles points this fact out.

As far as John 8:58, notice the context in which Jesus was speaking. Jesus had spoken about Abraham rejoicing about the Messiah. The Pharisees asked Jesus how he could have known that if he wasn't even old enough to have known Abraham. Jesus reply was (when accurately translated): "Before Abraham was, I have been". For example:

“From before Abraham was, I have been.” The New Testament, by G. R. Noyes.

“I existed before Abraham was born!” The Bible—An American Translation, by J. M. P. Smith and E. J. Goodspeed.

“Before Abraham was born, I was already the one that I am.” Das Neue Testament, by Jörg Zink.

“I was alive before Abraham was born!” The Simple English Bible.

“Before Abraham came into existence, I have been.” New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures.

Jesus never claimed to be God.

He often prayed to God. (Luke 6:12; John 17:1)

Jesus did not consider himself equal to God. (John 5:19, 30; John 6:38; John 14:28; Mark 10:17, 18; Mark 14: 35, 36)

Jesus referred to his father as "my God"? (John 20:17; Matthew 27:46)

Perhaps you've not come to an accurate understanding on John 3:16: "For God so loved the world...that he gave his Son."

It seems that when Jesus try to prove from the Bible that Jesus is God, they always use the same few scriptures that have been twisted around. Whereas the entire Bible speaks of Jesus as God's Son, always obedient to God. -Hebrews 5:8

Answer 3

Because he said he was older than Abraham, when they knew he was not yet 50 years old.

John 8:56-59- Abraham your father rejoiced greatly in the prospect of seeing my day, and he saw it and rejoiced.” Therefore the Jews said to him: “You are not yet fifty years old, and still you have seen Abraham?”Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to you, Before Abraham came into existence, I have been.” Therefore they picked up stones to hurl them at him; but Jesus hid and went out of the temple.

Jesus was pointing out that he was the Messiah, but they could not discern this. The discussion was about his age, not his Godship.

Someone saying "I am" does not make them God. How many times does the phrase "I am" appear in the Bible?

There is no evidence of the trinity in the Bible. Even this "evidence" of yours would make a "duality", not a "TRInity", which would require THREE "I am's".

Answer 4

I will say this, there are several scriptures that point to the triune God, of three in one in the Bible. The word Trinity is not mentioned, as it wasnt their word in the orignal text, but they had their one word which meant three in one, and the Bible talks about the triune God of three. There are references that show There is Father GOd, that Jesus Christ is God and that the Holy Spirit is God. THree opearing as one in the GOdhead. God is the Title of the Godhead.
Because all three are God, each with specific purpose to do Gods perfect will.
They wanted to kill Him because HE claimed to be God, and they did not recognize that He was God.
PPL today still crucify Him, by turning against Him and being disobedient rebellious ppl. WHen all HE did was love us and come to save us, and then so loving as to send us THe Holy SPirit to empower us, lead us , guide us, and show us how to liveas Jesus lived, a life of purity and peace and joy and live, in Jesus Christ. By His shed blood, it can be done. OThers will say it cant, but they lie, just as those who claimed JEsus was not GOd.
God says FORGIVE THEM THEY KNOW NOT WHAT THEY DO.
WE must forgive them and love them and pray for them, as we live the truth and speak the truths of God, but then we allow the Holy Spirit to do the convicting.
God says ppl are destroyed for lack of knowledge and vision. BUt He gives us all a chance to KNOW these things. It is NOT GODS fault if ppl dont know.
We can only keep on praying for them to KNOW GOD>
and then be sure we are in right standing with God ourselves.
HALLELUJAH>

Answer 5

What may I ask does this have to do with trinitarianism or non trinitarianism.

This is just Yahshua stating who he was, The very God of Abraham, Isaac and Israel, The YHVH that gave the torah to Moses, The one that inspired the prophets to write YHVH has become your Yahshua.

This has nothing to do with trinatarian doctrine.

Answer 6

"I am" in John's Gospel

The Expository Times, 1996, page 302 by Kenneth Mckay.

"The verb 'to be' is used differently, in what is presumably its basic meaning of 'be in existence', in John 8:58: prin Abraam genesthai ego eimi, which would be most naturally translated 'I have been in existence since before Abraham was born', if it were not for the obsession with the simple words 'I am'. If we take the Greek words in their natural meaning, as we surely should, the claim to have been in existence for so long is in itself a staggering one, quite enough to provoke the crowd's violent reaction."

McKay said in his book "A New Syntax of the Verb in New Testament Greek,An Aspectual Approach";

"Tense...4.2.4. Extension from Past. When used with an expression of either past time or extent of time with past implications(but not in past narrative, for which see 4.2.5), the present tense signals an activity begun in the past and continuing to the present time: Luke 13:7...Lu 15:29....Jn 14:9 [Tosouton khronon meth muoon eimi]..have I been with you so long...? ; Ac 27:33...Jn 8:58 [prin Abraam ego eimi], I have been in existence since before Abraham was born...."

In regard to context Kenneth McKay touched upon it in the quote of him above when he said,"the claim to have been in existence for so long is in itself a staggering one, quite enough to provoke the crowd's violent reaction[in v.59]"


["Kenneth L. McKay graduated with honours in Classics from the Universities of Sydney and Cambridge. He has taught Greek in universities and theological colleges in Nigeria, New Zealand, and England. Mr. MaKay retired from the Australian National University in 1987, after teaching there for 26 years. His articles on ancient Greek syntax in various journals and his book on classical Greek Attic, Greek Grammar for Students, have helped draw attention to the aspectual functions of the verb in Greek from the time of Homer to well beyond that of the New Testament."-back cover of the book A New Syntax of the Verb in New Testament Greek, An Aspectual Approach.]

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On the translating of EGO EIMI at John 8:58 by Dr Jason BeDuhn:

"John 8:58. The traditional translation "Before Abraham was, I am" is slavishly faithful to the literal meaning of the Greek ("Before Abraham came to be, I am"). The result is ungrammatical English. We cannot mix our tenses in such a way. The reason for this ugly rendering is the accident that, in English, the idiomatic "I am" sounds what God says about himself in the Hebrew/Old Testament. This is sheer coincidence. Jesus is not employing a divine title here. He is merely claiming that he existed before Abraham and, of course, he still exists whereas Abraham is dead. There is nothing wrong with the Greek, but we need to take account of the Greek idiom being employed and render the meaning into proper English. The NWT moves a step closer, but doesn't quite get there, because it still sounds awkward. But at least they were trying to convey exactly what the Greek idiom means. It's not that easy to come up with a phrase that works.

"I am before Abraham" would be my choice to cheat our way out of it. Again, the inversion of the word order in the traditional English translation attempts to isolate "I am" as the divine title. But there's nothing unusual in the Greek word order to induce us to deviate from normal English usage here"

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David J. A.Clines, Professor of Biblical Studies, University of Sheffield, England wrote in July 1995:

"There is no question but that the Greek means what you say it means, "I am." Those versions [Moffatt, Goodspeed, C.B.Williams]that have something different[from KJV etc]are trying to harmonise the Greek with what our idiom is in English. I think that ego eimi is the natural Greek way of saying "I was and still am"; if he had said ego en, it could have meant "I was, but am no longer", so I don't think a special significance must be attributed to the use of the present tense."


The Greek bible of Jesus' day said at Ex 3:14 "I am The Being, tell the sons of Israel "The Being" has sent me.

For Jesus to be quoting Ex 3:14 in Greek he would have had to say

Before Abraham was, The Being.

.

.

Answer 7

That He was God Almighty