Please explain John 8:58 (used by Trinitarians)?

Question

John 8:58 - Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.


Is this not really bad grammar? Jesus was simply saying that he existed in heaven before Abraham existed (i.e. "I WAS" in existence). Either Jesus wasn't good with his grammar, or he wanted to explain in a non-direct way that he was God (which would have been totally off topic because Jesus was replying to the Jews who said that he could not have existed when Abraham was alive because he was too young. Jesus was telling them that he was not only old enough to have seen Abraham, but that he existed even BEFORE Abraham).

Looking at the context, could this Greek text here have been poorly translated?

Here's how the Worldwide English version puts it:

"Jesus answered, I tell you the truth. I already was before Abraham was born"

So anywhere in the Hebrew and Greek scriptures where it says "I am" means God, right? But that doesn't make sense, there are too numerous occasions where that phrase is used in the bible where it doesn't refer to God.

Replacing the "I AM" with "God" makes sense:

"Tell them 'I AM' sent you."

Or,

"Tell them 'God' sent you"

But this does not make sense:

Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM.

Or

Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, God.

Answer 1

Many Bible versions render John 8:58 this way: "Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am."

And Ex. 3:14 this way: "God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM." And he said, "Say this to the people of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'"

(Because of this, Trinitarians often refer to this as 'proof' that Jesus is the Hebrew GOD of the O.T.)

But are the words "I am" supposed to be God's name? Even if it were so, would it make sense in John 8:58 for Jesus to say the equivalent of, "Most assuredly I say to you, before Abraham was...JEHOVAH?!?"

Looking at the context, the correct phrasing of this sentence should be "I was" instead of "I am" when used after the word "before." Also in verse 57, the question to which Jesus was replying had to do WITH AGE, not identity.

During the exchange with the Jews leading up to John 8:58, NOWHERE DOES JESUS CLAIM TO BE GOD. And as we've already seen, the words "I am" at John 8:58 (including the blatant unwarranted use of capitalization) is not only inaccurate but nonsensical.

Several translations phrase John 8:58 the correct way by which Jesus was actually illustrating how long he has existed. One, for instance:
"Jesus answered, "The truth is, I EXISTED BEFORE ABRAHAM WAS EVEN BORN!" (NLT)

Besides that, numerous TRINITARIAN authorities even have to admit that "I am" in Ex. 3:14 is not even correct and should be rendered more like "I will Be" (the MEANING OF God's name rather than God's personal name itself...Jehovah):

Encyclopedia Britannica:

"The writer of Exodus 3:14-15 ... explains it [the meaning of God's name] by the phrase EHYEH asher EHYEH (Ex. iii., 14); this can be translated `I am that I am' or more exactly `I am wont to be that which I am wont to be' or `I will be that which I will be.'" - p. 995, 14th ed., v. 12.
-RDB

For much more, see:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JWquestions_and_answers_archives/message/130

Answer 2

It depends on the attitude of the reader. Every scripture used to prove the trinity doctrine can be proved wrong and supported to be wrong by other scriptures. Only God can open a person's mind to the truth. Whether he does or not is up to him alone. Even the infamous John 1:1. How can you be God and be with God at the same time? Also, that verse mentions nothing about the Holy Spirit. When John sees Jesus sitting on the right hand of God, how can that be possible if he is God and where is the Holy Spirit? Again, it depends on the attitude of the reader. Just like Jesus told his apostles, to them it was granted to understand the sacred secret of God but to the pharisees it was not. If the trinity doctrine is paramount to a persons salvation, why was it not taught by the early Jewish leaders? It was not. The Hebrew scriptures teach nothing of that sort. Other Bible translations other than the New World Translation render John 1:1 as "and the word was divine". John J. McKenzie, S.J., in his Dictionary of the Bible, says: “Jn 1:1 should rigorously be translated ‘the word was with the God [= the Father], and the word was a divine being.’”—(Brackets are his. Published with nihil obstat and imprimatur.) (New York, 1965), p. 317. No doubt Jesus was a divine being. Just not the only true God the Father. He is his Son.

Answer 3

If Jesus intended to take the title of "I Am," he would have said something like, 'Before Abraham lived, I was the I Am.'

As it stands, converting the "am" into a proper noun leaves the sentence without any sort of modifying verb for the pronoun. That is why John 8:58 in most translations is mere gibberish, unless you imagine that Jesus suddenly started speaking in some sort of Ebonics.

If the concocted title of "I Am" at John 8:58 is simply another name of God, then we ought to be able to substitute the word God or Jehovah and get the same sense. So, read the verse in question substituting "I Am" with God and what do you get?

The NIV would read: "Before Abraham was born, God."

You don't have to be a Greek scholar to appreciate that the translation of ego eimi as "I Am" to determine that the context of the verse, Jesus was simply asked about his past.

New Topic: ego eimi present tense

The blind man in the very next chapter of John (9:9) says "Ego Eimi" with respect to himself. Was the blind man admitting that he was Jehovah? clearly not.

So what did Jesus mean when he said "Ego Eimi" in reference to "Before Abraham came into existence?" Many references show this simply to be the greek grammar of the present perfective. In other words, an action that started in the past AND CONTINUES TO THE PRESENT. This is the reason for the present tense.

The action expressed in John 8:58 started "before Abraham came into existence" and is still in progress. In such situation (eimi), which is the first-person singular present indicative, is properly translated by the perfect indicative (have ...).

Examples of the same syntax:

(John 15:27) because YOU have been (present tense) with me from when I began.

(Acts 15:21) For from ancient times Moses has had (present tense) in city after city those who preach him..."

Concerning this construction, A Grammar of the Idiom of the New Testament, by G. B. Winer, seventh edition, Andover, 1897, p. 267, says: "Sometimes the Present includes also a past tense (Mdv. 108), viz. when the verb expresses a state which commenced at an earlier period but still continues,-a state in its duration; as, John 15:27 [ap? arkhes' met? emou' este'], John 8:58 [prinAbraam' gene'sthai ego' eimi]."

Answer 4

When Ex 3:14 was translated into Greek by the Jews.

They didn't use "I am" (which is a poor english translation of the hebrew) they used, "I am The Being"

For Jesus to be refering to Ex 3:14 at John 8:58, he would have had to say:

"Before Abraham was, the Being."

As noted the proper Greek is "I am"; but a good translator doesn't keep the Greek grammar, but must change into English grammar, because that is what we are reading.

It is improper to say, "Before you came, I am" Ask your english teacher if you don't believe me.

Proper English requires tenses to agree, where as Greek doesn't.
-----

The Expository Times, 1996, page 302 by Kenneth Mckay.

"The verb 'to be' is used differently, in what is presumably its basic meaning of 'be in existence', in John 8:58: prin Abraam genesthai ego eimi, which would be most naturally translated 'I have been in existence since before Abraham was born', if it were not for the obsession with the simple words 'I am'. If we take the Greek words in their natural meaning, as we surely should, the claim to have been in existence for so long is in itself a staggering one, quite enough to provoke the crowd's violent reaction."

On the translating of EGO EIMI at John 8:58 by Dr Jason BeDuhn:

"John 8:58. The traditional translation "Before Abraham was, I am" is slavishly faithful to the literal meaning of the Greek ("Before Abraham came to be, I am"). The result is ungrammatical English. We cannot mix our tenses in such a way. The reason for this ugly rendering is the accident that, in English, the idiomatic "I am" sounds what God says about himself in the Hebrew/Old Testament. This is sheer coincidence. Jesus is not employing a divine title here. He is merely claiming that he existed before Abraham and, of course, he still exists whereas Abraham is dead. There is nothing wrong with the Greek, but we need to take account of the Greek idiom being employed and render the meaning into proper English. The NWT moves a step closer, but doesn't quite get there, because it still sounds awkward. But at least they were trying to convey exactly what the Greek idiom means. It's not that easy to come up with a phrase that works.

You can see the word for word translation of the Hebrew at:

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/exo3.pdf

The Hebrew doesn't say "I am"

.

Answer 5

If the Hebrew word Ehyeh means "I am" at Exodus 3:14 in the King James Version, why does this same Version translate Ehyeh as "I will be" two verses previous, at Exodus 3:12?

Ehyeh does not mean "I am", so to connect it with John 8:58 is incorrect. The context is not about God's mere existence, but his fulfilling his promises to the Patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, to give their descendants the land of Canaan. (Verses 13 and 15)

In the book, "A New Syntax of the Verb in New Testament Greek," by K. L. McKay (1994), the writer says "Extension from Past. When used with an expression of either past time or extent of time with past implications, the present tense signals an activity begun in the past and continuing to present time:....In Jn 8:58 PRIN ABRAAM GENESQAI EGW EIMI, I have been in existence since before Abraham was born." (Pages 41, 42)

Recognized Greek scholars thus show that John is not intending "I am" when he uses PRIN before EGW EIMI at John 8:58. He is not equating Jesus with God, but merely making a statement of Jesus' pre-existence with God.

Besides, if a mere [EGW] EIMI ("I am") ordinarily in Greek means that one is God, does the apostle Paul's use of EIMI hO EIMI, "I am what I am" (Compare the King James Version's "I Am that I Am" for God at Exodus 3:14) at 1 Corinthians 15:10 mean this apostle considered himself to be God also?

Jesus is not Jehovah. As he said often and frequently, he is God's Son. Jesus never said he is "God the Son," but the Son of God.

Why is that so hard for folks to comprehend?

Answer 6

In the Old Testament God said to Moses, “I AM THAT I AM.” This name was used frequently by Jesus to validate His deity. When he frequently used the name “I AM,” He was saying, “I am God.”
“I AM the bread which came down from heaven.” John 6:41.
“I AM the light of the world.” John 8:12.
“I AM the door.” John 10:7.
“I AM the good shepherd.” John 10:11.
“I AM the resurrection and the life.” John 11:25.
“I AM the way, the truth and the life.” John 14:6.
“I AM the true vine.” John 15:1.

The deity of Christ means that Christ is God. Scripture clearly teaches this important fact in the following ways.
The attributes of God are used in the Bible speaking of Christ.
His pre-existence. Christ has no beginning. John 1:1-3; 17:5.
His omnipresence. He is with His servants everywhere. Matthew 28:20.
His omnipotence. He has unlimited power. Revelation 1:18.
His omniscience. He has unlimited knowledge. John 21:17.
His unchangeableness. “Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and today, and forever." Hebrews 13:8.

The works of God were performed by Christ.
He created all things. John 1:3.
He upholds the universe. Colossians 1:17.
He raised Himself from the dead. John 2:19.

The titles of God are given to Christ.
God the Father addresses the Son as God. Hebrews 1:8.
Men called Him God, and He did not refuse their worship. John 20:28.
Demons recognized Him as God. Mark 1:24.
He declared Himself to be God. John 10:30.

Answer 7

Lynn appropriately quoted how other Bibles rendered John 8:58.

How can trinitarians use this verse to support their views? Did Jesus say at John 8:58 that he was part of a trinitarian God, consisting of the Father, Son, and holy spirit? Not even close!

Trinitarians are very confused. On one hand, they will say God is a trinity. On the other hand, they will say Jesus by himself is God. They don't know what to believe.

If Jesus was claiming to be God at John 8:58, why would he call his Father the ONLY true God? John 17:3.

If Jesus was claiming to be God at John 8:58, why would he say that his Father was greater than he was? John 14:28. WHO can be greater than God?

If Jesus was God, why didn't he know the day and hour? (Matt. 24:36) Did he forget?

The trinity teaches that it takes THREE co-equal, co-eternal persons to make ONE God. So when trinitarians say that Jesus was claiming to be the "I AM" of the book of Exodus, then he was really claiming to be the complete trinitarian godhead, consisting of the Father, Son, and the holy spirit. Is that what Jesus was saying? After all, according to the trinity, it takes THREE to make ONE.

As hard as they may try, trinitarians can't find one verse or series of verses in the Bible that say that God is made up of three distinct persons, Father, Son, and holy spirit, but that the three are only one God. They can't find one verse that says that the Father, Son, and holy spirit are equal in all ways, such as in eternity, power, position, and wisdom?

NOT ONE VERSE!!

Answer 8

The phrase "I AM" is a claim to the name of God (YHWY).

The name I AM is a statement of eternal being.

Jesus was saying In context "Before Abraham was, I EXIST"

The Jews that heard Him say it got the reference. They were going to stone Him. Not because of poor grammar but for claiming to be God.

Answer 9

Abraham was a created being and “came into existence.” Jesus applied the Greek word “genesthai” to Abraham but not to Himself. The Greek word “genesthai” is derived from “ginomai”and primarily means, according to The Complete Word Study Dictionary, “To begin to be, to come into existence as implying origin…”(Zodhiates, p. 368, World Publ.,1992). Although some translators like to translate “genesthai’ as “was born,” this is simply inaccurate since the Greek word “gennao” more specifically speaks of birth and begetting (see Matt. 2:1,4 Mark 14:21; John 3:4; 9:2).

Had Jesus wanted us to have the understanding, as some teach, that His pre-existence involved being created like Abraham, He could have been very clear by saying “Before Abraham came into existence, I came into existence,” thus applying “genesthai” to both Abraham and Himself. However, we know that this is not the case.

Instead of saying that He “came into existence” before Abraham, which would have taught a created pre-existence, Jesus simply claims to have existed before Abraham without being created. Jesus did not use one of the four past tense forms in Greek known as aorist, perfect, imperfect and pluperfect to express the nature of His existence. Jesus used the present tense of the Greek verb “to be” known as “eimi.”

Within Christian and Jewish and Muslim theology, only God can claim to have never been created. Thus we read that “then” those who heard Him picked up stones to cast at Him in vs. 59. Why? Because even they recognized the kind of existence that Jesus was claiming with the Greek word contrast that He used in the text.

Answer 10

It's simple......Jesus was speaking of his "pre-human" existance.

We understand this clearly [JW's] we don't try to read into a scripture what is not there as so many claim we do.

The daily text touched somewhat on that today. Maybe a few of the opposers should read Matthew 13:11.