"Jesus...said, "FATHER,...this is eternal life, that they may know you, the ONLY true God.'" (John 17:1-3) NRSV
Additionally related is the extremely significant fact that NOWHERE in the Bible can the phrases "God the Son" or "God, the Holy Spirit" be found.
Yet the Father is CLEARLY, directly, and indisputably called "GOD, THE FATHER," many, many times, (Ro. 15:6; 1 Cor. 1:3; 1 Cor. 8:6; 2 Cor. 11:31; Gal. 1:1; Eph. 4:6; 1 Thess. 1:1; 2 Thess. 1:2; etc.)
So again, if Jesus really is God, then why did Jesus himself say that "ONLY" the FATHER is God?
2007-11-28
06:33:44
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20 answers
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asked by
tik_of_totg
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Society & Culture
➔ Religion & Spirituality
Quoting all of the so-called proof texts still does not address the actual question.
2007-11-28
06:42:54 ·
update #1
By Faith,
I have not given anyone a thumbs down to this question. I find it easier to keep track of answers when they do not become hidden from view.
I would prefer it if Trinitarians addressed the specific question. Did you actually read MY question?
2007-11-28
07:04:32 ·
update #2
Savage,
You paraphrased John 10:30 "I and the Father are one.”
Does Jesus REALLY say here that he and the Father are the one same God?
When Bible writers write that a number of persons are "one," they consistently mean it in a FIGURATIVE sense.
For instance, Jesus said to the Father in John 17:22, "The glory which thou hast given me I have given to them; that they may be one, just as we are ONE." - NASB.
With this same 'reasoning', does this mean that the Christians that Jesus was talking about here are God just as the Father and Jesus are?
This verse (John 10:30) must be taken in context with all the rest of the Bible. You can't just take one or two verses out of context to base your theology on. Sorry, I'm sure you didn't want to hear that.
2007-11-28
07:17:26 ·
update #3
Linedancer,
You said,
"NOT ONE of the verses that trinitarians used here to prove their point says anything about a trinity."
What you said is undeniably true. Also, no Trinitarian here has yet explained why "only" the Father is God. (That word excludes Jesus AND the Holy Spirit as being God.)
2007-11-28
09:09:02 ·
update #4
It's funny how trinitarians who ignore Jesus' clear statement at John 17:3 will bring up scriptures that say NOTHING of a triune God! For instance, Primoa 19 quoted John 8:58: "Before Abraham was I Am."
WHERE is the trinity there? Did Jesus say that God was made up of three co-equal persons? Not even close!
Catholic Crusader's quote: "John 20:28, Thomas falls at Jesus’ feet, exclaiming, "My Lord and my God!" (Greek: Ho Kurios mou kai ho Theos mou—literally, "The Lord of me and the God of me!")."
Do you see a trinity here? Where did Thomas say God was made up of three co-equal persons? He didn't!
Weird Darryl says: "John, on the other hand, said that Jesus was god (John 1.1) and Paul said that everything that has been created was created by Jesus (Col. 1.16).
In these two verses, is ANYTHING said about God being made up of three co-equal persons? NO!
Going back to Catholic Crusader, he said: "In Philippians 2:6, Paul tells us that Christ Jesus '[w]ho, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped' (New International Version). So Jesus chose to be born in humble, human form though he could have simply remained in equal glory with the Father for he was "in very nature God."
In the scripture that he refers to, Phil. 2:6, did Paul say Jesus was part of a triune God, consisting of the Father, Son, and the holy spirit? NEVER!
I would comment on what Morkie said, but I think I've made my point that such scriptures say NOTHING of a triune godhead.
NOT ONE of the verses that trinitarians used here or anywhere else to prove their point says anything about a 3-un-one God. They are so confused that they don't know what to believe. Is the trinity God? Or is Jesus by himself God? If the trinity is God, then Jesus by himself is only part God. If Jesus by himself is God, where does that leave the Father and the Holy spirit?
It is so sad that trinitarians blind themselves to the simple truth that Jesus' Father is the only true God.
1 Tim. 2:5 says: "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus."
Trinitarians refuse to accept the word "only" at John 17:3, where Jesus said his Father was the only true God. "Only" means "to the exclusion of others." By using that word, Jesus was excluding himself and everyone else from being the true God. Trinitarians can see that. They just don't want to admit that it puts a knife in the heart of the trinitarian doctrine.
Trinitarians don't have a foot to stand on.
2007-11-28 07:31:44
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answer #1
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answered by LineDancer 7
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I'm not a Trinitarian, but I don't think this particular verse is hard to interpret. In my opinion Jesus is not saying that Jesus is not God. He is saying that the Father is the only true God. So, if the Father is the only true God, what does that leave Jesus?
If you look a little further in this same chapter of John you see that Jesus says repeatedly that God the Father and Jesus are One. The Father is the only true God, but Jesus includes himself in the Father, because the Father is in Jesus, and Jesus is in the Father. If the Father and the Son are one, then both of them are in the godhead. Both the Father and the Son are the one true God. In this prayer Jesus shows his deference to His Father.
This verse must be taken in context with all the rest of the Bible, which time after time shows Jesus to be God, and shows Jesus claiming to be the God of the Old Testament. You can't just take one or two verses out of context to base your theology on. Sorry, I'm sure you didn't want to hear that.
Edit.
Yes, of course, the Father and the Son are only figuratively one. They are not the same person. But figuratively is also the way you should take John 17:1-3 when you read that only the Father is God. Jesus knew he was also God, as he said on other occassions, but figuratively only the Father is God because figuratively the Father and Son are one, with the Father in the presiding position. They are one in purpose, perfection, Godly attributes, understanding, goodness, and every other characteristic except the same person and the same role in the Godhead.
"For instance, Jesus said to the Father in John 17:22, "The glory which thou hast given me I have given to them; that they may be one, just as we are ONE." - NASB"
You will note that the verb tense here is future, that they may be one, just as we are ONE. That is right, Jesus was praying that these disciples might eventually become ONE with God, and become gods themselves. I think you need to expand your horizons here.
2007-11-28 06:59:36
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answer #2
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answered by Anonymous
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If you keep reading the verses that you quoted, you will find Jesus saying "I glorified you on earth by accomplishing the work that you gave me to do. Now glorify me, Father, with you, with the glory that I had with you before the world began." (verses 5 and 6). Here we discover that Jesus was with the Father before the world began. This actually reinforces both the mystery of Christ's divinity and the mystery of the Trinity. Who else but God has the characteristics that Christ claims of being eternal and existing before creation? Christ also reveals here that God is indeed more than one person, since he states that he was with the Father before the world began. So we know that God is at least two persons, and in other parts of the gospel we see that there is a third person who is called the Holy Spirit. You have to consider the gospels in their entirety when pondering the doctrines of the Trinity and Christ's divinity.
2007-11-28 07:00:06
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answer #3
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answered by morkie 4
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There are no undisputed, clear statements in scripture which declare Jesus to be equally God with the Father.
The title "God" is clearly, indisputably understood to be the Father (YHWH/Jehovah) many times.
Jesus is clearly understood as subordinate to God many times: John 17:1,3; 1 Cor. 8:6; 1 Cor. 11:3; Rev. 3:12; etc.
Yes, the Father created the universe THROUGH the Son. This is no more difficult to understand than the fact that the Father (YHWH) gave the Law to the Israelites THROUGH Moses.
For those who list the old trinity 'proofs' instead of clear, undisputed scriptures declaring Jesus to be God:
Please, if you really believe these as proof, examine the following answers to those 'proofs.'
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JWquestions-and_answers/files/Trinity/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JWquestions-and_answers/links/Trinity_Research_001175114480/
2007-11-28 11:17:53
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answer #4
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answered by ted t 4
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Question:
"Jesus...said, "FATHER,...this is eternal life, that they may know you, the ONLY true God.'" (John 17:1-3) NRSV
My answer:
Let us use the whole verse 3...3Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
This verse spells out the only one way to know the Father, and that way is only to know the Son to gain eternal life. Let us see Jude 4 and compare with John 17:3...
4 For certain men whose condemnation was written about[a] long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.
If the Father is the only true God in John 17:3, then the same reasoning should also apply to the Son being our only Sovereign (Master) and Lord. Then if Jesus is not God in John 17:3, is the Father also not Lord in Jude 4? Then look on into another verse 1 Corinthians 8:6...
6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.
If we see only one God who is the Father in this verse, then the same reasoning also applies to seeing only one Lord the Son. If this kind of logic applies to this verse, then therefore are you saying the Father is not Lord? This question I forwarded was initiated by you asking how can Jesus be God in that verse.
Question:
Additionally related is the extremely significant fact that NOWHERE in the Bible can the phrases "God the Son" or "God, the Holy Spirit" be found.
Yet the Father is CLEARLY, directly, and indisputably called "GOD, THE FATHER," many, many times, (Ro. 15:6; 1 Cor. 1:3; 1 Cor. 8:6; 2 Cor. 11:31; Gal. 1:1; Eph. 4:6; 1 Thess. 1:1; 2 Thess. 1:2; etc.)
So again, if Jesus really is God, then why did Jesus himself say that "ONLY" the FATHER is God?
My answer:
Let's go over all the verses you just mentioned:
Romans 15:6...6so that with one heart and mouth you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
This verse does say the Father is God, but it did not say Jesus is not God, nor does it say the Father is not Lord.
1 Corinthians 1:3...3Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ
Once again, this verse does say the Father is God and Jesus is Lord. It does not however say Jesus is not God nor does it not say the Father is not Lord.
1 Corinthians 8:6 was already mentioned up above, so can God the Father not be Lord in that verse?
2 Corinthians 11:31...31The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, who is to be praised forever, knows that I am not lying.
Again, this verse does not say Jesus is not God.
Galatians 1:1... 1Paul, an apostle—sent not from men nor by man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead—
It is clear in this verse that Paul was not sent by man, so if Jesus is not merely a man, who is Jesus to you? Again, this verse does not say Jesus is not God.
Ephesians 4:6...6one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
This verse does not mention Jesus, so if you say Jesus is not God here, is the Father not Lord wherever a verse mentions Jesus is Lord and the Father is not mentioned all over in the New Testament? There are too many verses to quote where Jesus is Lord, so I will not bother quoting them all, but I'm sure you can see them all through the New Testament, and the number of verses where Jesus is mentioned as Lord is staggering.
1 thessalonians 1:1...1Paul, Silas[a] and Timothy,
To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:
Grace and peace to you.[b]
Again here, if Jesus is not God here, then the same reasoning applies to the Father not being Lord also.
2 Thessalonians 1:2...2Grace and peace to you from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
And again here you can see clearly that the Father is also Lord, so therefore Jesus must be God...let me see now,
Let's say a person had a child. This person has the same substance as this child, raised this child, fed this child, kept this child under the same roof, drove this child to school, etc...
Would anyone who didn't know the relationship this person had with that child draw a conclusion that this person is not the father/mother/parent of that child? The same conclusion should be compared with the Bible. It says the Father has the only begotten Son, therefore the Son does have the same eternal and spiritual substance as the Father (divinity), and He also has the same human substance as us (fleshly, like the above-mentioned person and child). The Bible does say He is Immanuel, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace, Wonderful Counselor and 'the Word was God' (John 1:1c). Jesus said, before Abraham was, 'I Am', He said I Am the First and the Last (Rev. 1:17), Thomas called him My Lord and My God, Jesus said I Am the Good Shepherd (Why do you call me good? There is no one Good except God alone), etc... Can your conclusion lead you to believe Jesus is not God? Are you also going to conclude the above-mentioned person is not a mother/father/parent to that child? That is exactly what you are doing to all the biblical evidence saying Jesus is God.
The evidence can pile to the roof that Jesus is God, even though the Bible never did say word for word 'Jesus is God', but the Bible did not say word for word 'Jesus is not God' also. If you had a pile of evidence up to the stars will you start to believe? No, belief is only in the heart of those who do love Jesus. If someone believes the above-mentioned person is not the mother/father/parent of that child, then the many years of evidence piled up for those people to see was shunned by those same unloving people who looked the other way.
I hope I answered all your questions to the best of my ability. If I had the spare time which I don't, I would be glad to show you and others a pile of evidence which can virtually reach up to the stars. Unfortunately I don't have the time here, but you can always go to an apologist website like CARM.org or jehovahswitness.com or the likes. I'm sure there are lots of Christian Apologists who will be glad to discuss all the clear evidence showing Jesus is God. Have a good day. Tim.
2007-12-03 10:37:00
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answer #5
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answered by Thinkpad User 4
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I agree with Sugarbee and I'm guessing that they just skim over the Scriptures and take it out of context so they can say "Oh right here it says that Jesus is God." Rather than just reading the whole Scripture, digesting it, and thinking about what it really says without saying quick snap judgments about it. Its crazy what people will say about the Bible, but Jehovah will deal with it.
Here's also a couple Scriptures that clearly say that there is no trinity.
John 14:28: "YOU heard that I said to YOU, I am going away and I am coming [back] to YOU. If YOU loved me, YOU would rejoice that I am going my way to the Father, because the Father is greater than I am."
John 20:17: "Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me. For I have not yet ascended to the Father. But be on your way to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and YOUR Father and to my God and YOUR God.’”
2007-11-30 05:41:22
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answer #6
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answered by ladybugwith7up 3
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This is what I say to Trinitarians:
Hebrews 13:8, 9 - "8 Jesus Christ never changes! He is the same yesterday, today, and for ever. 9 Don't be fooled by any kind of strange teachings..." (CEV)
Doesn't that sound like the trinity? God changed into Jesus, and then Jesus changed back into God....doesn't that sound like a strange teaching not found in the bible?
2007-11-28 08:50:42
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answer #7
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answered by Paul S 4
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Jesus is the only begotten son of God or first born, Begotten or to beget means to be the first born of. College Dictionary 5th ed.
So Jesus had to be the only first born of creation by God Jehovah
Some translators take out the word only
begotten in order to teach the trinity doctrine. But if you go back to the transliteration of the Greek Scriptures will find that it does in fact say only begotten
Sorry this is not printing correctly or spell check is not working.
The Name Jesus it self means Helper of Jah. or salvation belongs to Jah. Hebrew transcript c-100 f c4 and Diolot of the Vatican.
Hallelujah means
Praise Ye Jehovah
Hal la lu Jah
Not praise ye Jesus although he does deserve our honor, prayers and respect. And we must go through him first inorder for GOD to hear our prayers.
Sincerely yours,
Fred M. Hunter
fmhguitars@yahoo.com
2007-12-01 17:42:24
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answer #8
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answered by Anonymous
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Our early ancient father of Holy Trinity God, as handed from our apostles and now guarded n preserved by the Catholic Church:
Early Trinitarian Quotes
by Matt Slick
There are cult groups (Jehovah's Witnesses, The Way International, Christadelphians, etc.) who deny the Trinity and state that the doctrine was not mentioned until the 4th Century until after the time of the Council of Nicea (325). This council "was called by Emperor Constantine to deal with the error of Arianism [see page 45] which was threatening the unity of the Christian Church."
The following quotes show that the doctrine of the Trinity was indeed alive-and-well before the Council of Nicea:
Polycarp (70-155/160). Bishop of Smyrna. Disciple of John the Apostle.
"O Lord God almighty . . . I bless you and glorify you through the eternal and heavenly high priest Jesus Christ, your beloved Son, through whom be glory to you, with Him and the Holy Spirit, both now and forever" (n. 14, ed. Funk; PG 5.1040).
Justin Martyr (100?-165?). He was a Christian apologist and martyr.
"For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water" (First Apol., LXI).
Ignatius of Antioch (died 98/117). Bishop of Antioch. He wrote much in defense of Christianity.
"In Christ Jesus our Lord, by whom and with whom be glory and power to the Father with the Holy Spirit for ever" (n. 7; PG 5.988).
"We have also as a Physician the Lord our God Jesus the Christ the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began, but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin. For ‘the Word was made flesh.' Being incorporeal, He was in the body; being impassible, He was in a passable body; being immortal, He was in a mortal body; being life, He became subject to corruption,
2015-05-17 09:52:18
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answer #9
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answered by Mayflower 7
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There is only one true God(Jehovah,Yahweh) which ever you prefer, (Psalms 83:18, Exod.6:3)the Most high over all the earth. In the old testament ive never read that Jesus was the Most high over all the earth or the God of Abraham,Isaac, or Jacob for he was the promised Messiah that was to come through those bloodlines. That God Almighty was to send..(John 17:3) Jesus Is A Mighty God (Isaiah 9:6) for he was the Master worker and was the direct image of the invisible God who is his Father when they were creating all things
(Col 1:15,16).
Catholic Christian, my friend, you are mistaken on your meaning of the quote of John 8:59 when they threw stones at Jesus and hid himself for he NEVER said he was God all through out chapt. 7 & 8 he was saying that he was SENT by his father God,and that he was his SON. Not that i sent my self, or I came on my own. God doesnt have to answer or hide from any man for
Dan 4:35 says "And all the inhabitants of the earth are being considered as merely nothing, and he is doing according to his own will among the army of the heavens and the inhabitants of the earth. and there exists NO ONE that can check his hand or that can say to him, 'What have you been doing?'
and Rev 1:8 , Jesus is not saying that about himself he is speaking what his father God TOLD him to speak for in that same chapt of Rev chapt. 1 vs 1 says that its a Revelation BY Jesus Christ, which GOD GAVE him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. (Again even in Heaven they are not the Same, that vs. proves it right there.
Savage; John chapt. 17 is talking completely about UNITY. Yes he said the Father is in him & he in the Father but he also prayed the we also (his servants) are in union with Jesus but prayed that we be in union with them BOTH vs.23. To prove this Just because Jesus said the Father & I are One (John 1:1) If you too, would look a little further down in John 17:11 & John 17:21 he was praying that we (his servants) be ONE just as Jesus and his Father is ONE.
This word ONE is talking about Unity, for even if we are ONE as Jesus, and his Father . We could NEVER be God. But we all could be in Unity with their beliefs, way of thinking, and doing things. They are ONE in unity, not the same individual.
No Pun intended for anyone. Just trying to help understand that for us its ok to disagree and to get other peoples view points but
to have accurate knowledge of God & his Son... is his WILL (1 Ti. 2:4) and means our Salvation (John 17:3)
So continue Seeking & you shall find.........
2007-11-28 09:20:31
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answer #10
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answered by ray_clrk 5
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