jehovah's witnesses, in REVELATION 7:4, why are the # 144k literal and the 12 tribes figuartive?

Question

and that only you guys have positions in 144k that are destined for heaven. shouldnt they both either be literal or figurative?

Answer 1

you know, I used to be a Lutheran, but I have never felt any compelling desire to bash Lutherans for the beliefs that they hold to , that I now disagree with.
I always wonder why ex JW's are so angry with their former association with the organization, that they simply can not let go, and get on with their lives.
If you are so smart, instead of smearing the Jw's would not your time be better spent preaching what you believe is the truth rather than constantly bashing the JW's?
Why can you not let go?
I guess the Bible is quite accurate when it said that those who were thrown out of the Kingdom for not having a wedding garment, would sit outside weeping and gnashing their teeth.

Now, to answer your question, the specific number and the symbolic 'tribes' are easily defined by cross referencing to the other scriptures to which it is said, 'a Jew, is one who is circumcised in spirit, not of the flesh'.
If you would stop 'cherry picking' scriptures, you would know that.
I think you should probably ponder this verse-Matthew 7:6, and think deeply, how this applies to your person.

Answer 2

The 12 tribes are figurative because verses 4-8 diverge from the usual tribal listing. The listing here is not for the purpose of identifying fleshly Jews by their tribes but to show a similar organizational structure for *spiritual* Israel. They are exactly 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes. We know "the little flock" (144,000) is literal because in contrast "the great crowd" is not given a number in Rev. 7:9.
The "little flock" is only found in the Witnesses because they are "the faithful and discreet slave" mentioned at Matthew 24:45 who give Christ's "domestics" spiritual "food at the proper time." (i.e. the overabundance of information we consistently receive through this "slave" class.) And only Witnesses partake of the memorial emblems annually at Jesus' Memorial Service. There are less than 9,000 anointed ones who remain on earth. The anointed remnant. :)

Hope that helps. Are these questions sincere?

Answer 3

In Revelation 7:3 we are told that God said 'Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.' And in verse 4 the number of those who were sealed was 144,000. So far, so good.

Now go to Revelation 9:1-6 where the we are told the earth is to suffer a plague of symbolic locust. Read verse 4: 'They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but ONLY THOSE PEOPLE WHO DID NOT HAVE THE SEAL OF GOD ON THEIR FOREHEADS.' If we are to take the number of 144,000 as literal, then that must surely mean that only 144,000 are to be saved when God pours out the wrath of his anger at Armageddon. Or have I missed something here?

The reason I ask is I recently saw a question about this scripture and it was only when I checked back on Revelation 7:4 that I noticed the connection between the statements that the only people not to be harmed were those bearing the seal on their foreheads. I understand this can only apply to the anointed, the 144,000 who have a heavenly hope. So what happens to all the other millions of Jehovah's Witnesses at Armageddon - the ones who are NOT fully anointed, those who do not have a heavenly hope?

If the 144,000 is a literal number then surely that must mean only 144,000 will survive Armageddon.

And what about Revelation 7:9-17 when the Great Multitude, WHO HAVE COME OUT OF THE GREAT TRIBULATION, are seen standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb? 'They are before the throne of God and serve him day and night IN HIS TEMPLE' (verse 15). That's in heaven, folks!

Answer 4

I believe there are many of the 144,000 that were not JWs. Remember that our religion has only been around for about (**updated) 100 or so years. Prior to that the number was being filled by others.


The # is shown to be literal for several reasons:

1. It is listed in the verse in Rev 14:1 (where it is also told to us) along with another literal number.... ONE Lamb (Jesus).

2. The specific # of 144K is contrasted with the "great crowd which no man is able to number" in Rev. 7:9.

3. The tribes of Israel are figurative because the listing of the tribes does not match the ACTUAL 12 tribes of Israel. The original 12 tribes did not include Joseph or Levi. Rather, the tribes included Ephraim and Manasseh.


So - in short:

No. They don't both have to be literal or figurative.



Edit:

Ok - sorry for the 1000 yrs thing.... I actually meant about 100.

Answer 5

it is a assertion made up through fake prophets to human beings perplexed why so low a style while in comparison with christians at present alive. the reality is the one hundred forty four,000 are the one hundred forty four,000 who won't in any respect style loss of existence and are right now switched over and get to flow to Heaven alive the place by using fact something of the saved Christians could style loss of existence in the previous entering Heaven by using fact the great multitude. And the clarification they are stated as tribes of Israel is that by using fact the actual Israelites have been God's human beings interior the previous testomony God's human beings in New testomony and final Days are religious Israelites

Answer 6

I've read the JW answers and feel very sad. Not one of them belongs to this elite 144,000 hierarchy. Yet they profess to know all about them? How can that be? It takes one to know one! I suspect they have simply repeated what their leaders say on the subject, because those leaders claim to be of this 'anointed' class. As such, they are in a superior position because they are anointed with 'holy spirit' whilst rank and file JWs are not. But, hang on a minute... how can people anointed - indwelt - with God's blessed Holy Spirit call him 'it'? How can they dare tell others that the more studying of their literature that they do, the more 'holy spirit' the students can expect to earn? Could THIS be the reasons why JWs take half a sentence as literal whilst saying the other half is symbolic? That would explain a lot.

A biblical example given by a JW is false. The parable Jesus told was not meant to be taken literally at all. It was not talking about real people. Another JW argued that if the earth is to become a paradise over which the 144,000 rule, there must be earthly subjects to rule over. Back to front reasoning, friends! Bible prophecies could work out so that all God's people are taken to heaven prior to God burning up the heavens, earth and its inner works (as per 2 Peter 3:10-13). Then, after he has created a new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness is to dwell, he could re-populate it with the meek, sending them back down from heaven. It is only because JW leaders adamantly insist they and they alone have God's revealed truth, that their interpretation is the only one that is valid. What arrogance! Why cannot JWs show a little humility and say, 'Well, this is what we think, but as this is not the gospel, it is a disputable matter and we won't place undue stress on it.'

Answer 7

The 144 thousand are Jews that received "salvation" out of more then 6 million Jews that died in the "great tribulation" only 144 thousand of them received "salvation"
After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Rev 7:9

These are the gentiles who received "grace". and also were killed in the "great tribulation" The great tribulation took place between 1680 AD and 1960 AD. They must wait in paradise for the rest of us born before 1960 to also die as they did.

The "tribulation" took place between 0 and 280 AD, and included all those who died (in body, only) from the foundation of the world to 280 AD, this was the very first "harvest"

Answer 8

Romans 2:28, 29
28For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Simple Bible answer, because JEWS in the NT are not fleshly Jews, but spiritual ones (the heavenly class).

Abraham's seed is NO LONGER the fleshly Jews in the Middle East, but Christ's heavenly followers.

Galatians 3:29
29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Galatians 4: 22For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.

23But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

24Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

25For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

26But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

There are "old testament jews" and "new testament jews".....hence their ruling place in heaven is called "New Jerusalem".

12 sons/tribes of Israel, 12 apostles....

And last, but NOT least, YOU and all in Christendom know that the heavenly class of Christians are KINGS AND PRIESTS, right?

Rev. 5:9, 10
9And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Revelation 14:3 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain



3And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

NO ONE but the 144,000 gets to sing the new song being made kings and priests, hence no possibility for it being Jews in the mid east getting to rule from heaven.

Debbie

Answer 9

Yes, there are many reasons to believe that the 144,000 is literal.

First, Jesus himself referred to a definite number whom his Father had given him.

At John 17:2, Jesus said in prayer: "According as you have given him authority over all flesh, that, as regards the whole number whom you have given him, he may give them everlasting life."

Jesus' reference to "the whole number," while not specifying the actual number, indicates that Jesus was aware that there would be a specific number of disciples he would be given as associate kings.

Furthermore, Paul made reference to a specific number.

At Romans 11:25-26a, he wrote: "For I do not want you, brothers, to be ignorant of this sacred secret, in order for you not to be discreet in your own eyes: that a dulling of the sensibilities has happened in part to Israel until the full number of people of the nations has come in, and in this manner all Israel will be saved."

The full number indicates that there is a specific number that must be filled, does it not?

Answer 10

Luke 18:10 states “Two men went up into the temple to pray, the one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector”

In this illustration, is the number Two literal or figurative, is the Pharisee only applied to Jews? And is the praying figurative or literal?

In just one sentence, you can see that some words are meant to be literal, some are meant to figurative.



Rev 6:10-11 states “. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying: “Until when, Sovereign Lord holy and true, are you refraining from judging and avenging our blood upon those who dwell on the earth?” 11 And a white robe was given to each of them; and they were told to rest a little while longer, until the number was filled also of their fellow SLAVES and their brothers who were about to be killed as they also had been.”

These SLAVES of God, where later sealed in their foreheads in Rev 7:3 “3 saying: “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until after we have sealed the SLAVES of our God in their foreheads.””

Rev 7:4 states that these slaves of God number 144,000.

If the prophecy in Rev 6:10 happened in the earlier centuries, then how come the “judgment” of their blood upon those who dwell on the earth has not arrived yet? The judgment is still in the future.

That 144,000 is being CONTRASTED to a huge number, that no man was able to number, means that 144,000 is a small number and literal. Rev 7:9



The 144,000 is composed of spiritual Jews

They have to be spiritual Israelites if they are to stand with the Lamb Jesus Christ on the heavenly Mount Zion. (Revelation 14:1-3; Hebrews 12:22

13 In order for 144,000 persons “out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation” to be rated as “Israelites” they would have to be such in a figurative sense, that is, be inwardly Israelites. As Romans 2:29 reminds us: “He is a Jew who is one on the inside, and his circumcision is that of the heart by spirit.”

The natural Jews as well as the non-Jews who become the dedicated, baptized disciples of Christ and whom God PICKS OUT to share with Christ in world rule God begets with his spirit. All such become spiritual Israelites.



2 Cor 5:10 talks about the people who will be judged.

10 For we must all be made manifest before the judgment seat of the Christ, that each one may get his award for the things done through the body, according to the things he has practiced, whether it is good or vile.


The 144.000 will be kings with Jesus and part of the FIRST resurrection and are given favor in the judgment itself.

Rev 5:10 states “ and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”


Dan 7:22 states “22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment itself was given in favor of the holy ones of the Supreme One, and the definite time arrived that the holy ones took possession of the kingdom itself.”

Rev 20:5 states “This is the first resurrection. 6 Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and will rule as kings with him for the thousand years.”

144,000 ‘not defiled with women.’ In Revelation 14:1-4, the 144,000 described as standing with the Lamb on Mount Zion are said to have been “bought from the earth. These are the ones that did not defile themselves with women; in fact, they are virgins.” These are shown as having a more intimate relationship with the Lamb than any others do, being the only ones to master the “new song.” (Re 14:1-4) This would indicate that they make up the “bride” of the Lamb. (Re 21:9) They are spiritual persons, as revealed by the fact that they stand on the heavenly Mount Zion with the Lamb. Therefore their ‘not defiling themselves with women’ and their being “virgins” would not mean that none of these 144,000 persons had ever been married, for the Scriptures do not forbid persons on earth who are to be joint heirs with Christ to marry. (1Ti 3:2; 4:1, 3) Neither would it imply that all the 144,000 were men, for “there is neither male nor female” as far as the spiritual relationship of Christ’s joint heirs is concerned. (Ga 3:28) The “women” therefore must be symbolic women, doubtless religious organizations such as Babylon the Great and her ‘daughters,’ false religious organizations, the joining of and participation in which would prevent one from being spotless. (Re 17:5) This symbolic description harmonizes with the requirement in the Law that the high priest of Israel take only a virgin for his wife, for Jesus Christ is Jehovah’s great High Priest.—Le 21:10, 14; 2Co 11:2; Heb 7:26.