Mary a forever virgin?

Question

If Mary never had sex with Joseph then what does the following verse mean? It seems to me to mean Joseph waited until after Mary gave birth and then they had normal marital relations, they had sex. So if they never had sex what does this verse mean? I do not want tradition. I do not want a bunch of explanations of why she had to remain a virgin. I want to know what this verse means.

Matthew 1:24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
Mat 1:25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

CC - You did exactly what I asked you not to do. I do not want tradition. I want you to address this specific verse.

Answer 1

THANK YOU! Proved my point exactly. They consummated their marriage after she gave birth to Jesus.

Goodness, look at all those thumbs-down. Why do people not accept what's written in plain English? You guys are blind.

Answer 2

John 2:12
"After this He went down to Capernaum, with His mother and His brothers and His disciples; and there they stayed for a few days."


Matthew 13:55
"Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?"


Matthew 27:56
"Among which was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedee's children."



Note here that Mary was NOT named the mother of Jesus. Although she was his mother, God did not deem this an important distinction to put upon her.


Mary was NEVER called the "mother of God" or any other such filthy things. She had other children and I'm sure she breastfed all of them and enjoyed sex with her husband Joseph.

She is NOT a mediatrix, she acknowledged her own need for the savior and was NOT some 'immaculate conception'--what a false and totally baseless extra-biblical false idea.

Answer 3

I have no problem with people believing that Mary was a virgin her whole life, it is a harmless belief. I agree with Catholic Crusader's assertion that the verse deals with what happened up until the time Christ was born, and doesn't speak to what took place after. The problem I have with the RCC on this point is the insistence on people believing it. If you don't believe this then you've rejected a dogma of the church and are lost. That to me is the troubling part since whether or not Mary and Joseph had sexual intercourse after Jesus' birth does not effect the gospel at all.

Answer 4

the word "until" is defined by Webster's Dictionary as: "up to the time that" but also "when or before." The word "until" implies no action afterward in either standard English or biblical usage. For example, 2 Samuel 6:23 says that "no son was born to Michol, the daughter of Saul *until* her dying day." One can no more argue that the use of "until" by Matthew implies Mary's having a child after the birth of Jesus than one can say that "until" indicates that Michol had a child after her dying day.

Mark 3:31-33, which refers to Jesus' "mother and his brothers" is the same word used for brothers in the passage (and others) is also rendered as "brethren" elsewhere. A deficiency in Hebrew and Aramaic makes it difficult to discern whether the word carries the connotation of blood brother, cousin, or some relation between the two in any one passage. One cannot prove that Mary had other children from the Gospel accounts for this reason.

But why does the Church make such an issue over Mary's perpetual virginity? First of all, because it is a matter of preserving the truth. The Church has always taught that Mary was a perpetual virgin. This information can be gleaned from many sources, but especially from the earliest liturgical prayers in which reference is made to "the Virgin." If Mary had not remained a virgin until death, why speak of her after the birth of Christ as such? If one has an uncle who is a bachelor, he is rightly referred to as one's "bachelor uncle." If he marries and thus ceases to be a bachelor, calling him a "bachelor uncle" would be senseless. In the same way, the early Church spoke of Mary as "the Virgin" precisely because of the belief that she lived and died a virgin. When this teaching was questioned in later centuries, we find the addition of the adverb "ever." Thus do the Creed of Epiphanius (c. 374), the Second Council of Constantinople (553) and the Lateran Council (649) all speak of the "ever-Virgin Mary." Augustine, Jerome and Cyril of Alexandria followed the same usage, as did Protestant reformers Luther, Calvin and Zwingli.

The doctrine of Mary's perpetual virginity is not a statement that sex is bad, but it is an important statement regarding Mary's single-heartedness and the uniqueness of her vocation. She was called to be the Mother of the Messiah; no other work could surpass it, and hence it was fitting that no other fruit should come forth from the womb which carried the Redeemer of humanity. With no proof for other children born to Mary, and the weight of 20 centuries of Tradition to the contrary, the burden rests on those who would deny Mary's perpetual virginity.

Mary is a sign of hope for Christians. Wordsworth put it poetically and almost biblically when he spoke of her as "our tainted nature's solitary boast." In Mary, God returned humanity to the innocence of Eden; thus she is a sign and promise of what the Lord will do for all who follow her example of fidelity.

In the Scriptures, Mary prophesied that "all ages to come shall call me blessed" (Lk 1:48). Catholics consider it a privilege to fulfil that prophecy, for one cannot ignore this woman, lest one risk distorting the Gospel itself.

Answer 5

"Until she bore a son: the evangelist is concerned to emphasize that Joseph was not responsible for the conception of Jesus. The Greek word translated "until" does not imply normal marital conduct after Jesus' birth, nor does it exclude it."

Taken from the footnote to Matthew 1:25 from the New American Bible.

Answer 6

Mary had more children. The Bible tells us that Joseph and Mary consummated the marriage after Jesus was born.

The reason why Jesus had step siblings was that Jesus was not Joseph's biological child.

Answer 7

It seems that some believe that intimacy that occurs within in the marriage is somehow wrong, or they would need to try to shift God's word to keep Mary a virgin. Why would this be so important to them? Is the fact that Mary was a obedient and submissive wife to her husband Joseph, and had sex with him, as GOD CALLS FOR, make her less worthy of having Jesus when God, after all, is the one who chose her?

It seems these people who like to reach false doctrine, and insist on keeping Mary a virgin think that she did not uphold her God-given duty to her husband. Strange......

Answer 8

Mary is only a vessel used of God to bring Jesus into this world. Joseph was instructed by God's angel not to have sexual relations with Mary until the birth of Christ. After that, Joseph and Mary produced children, therefore Mary could not remain a virgin.

Answer 9

Until:

It's argued that Joseph "knew" Mary at some point because Matthew 1:25 reads, "And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son..." But, once again, language clouds the issue.

"Until" is used to mean "up to that point, and with no intimations that things changed after that point." Example, 2 Samuel 6:23 reads, "Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child unto the day of her death."

Would Protestants say she had children after the day of her death because the use of the word "unto" proves it?

What about 1 Samuel 15:35? "And Samuel came no more to see Saul until the day of his death: nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul: and the Lord repented that he had made Saul king over Israel." I really doubt Samuel and Saul hooked up after his death, either!

1 Timothy 6:14 says, "That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ." What? After that it's going to be one big orgy? I don't think so! And the same goes for:


Genesis 8:7: "the raven "did not return until the waters were dried up" (the raven never returned even after the waters were dried up);

Deuteronomy 34:6: "and no one knows his [Moses'] grave until this day." (Moses' grave was never found)

Luke 1:80: "[St. John the Baptist] was in the deserts until the day of his manifestation to Israel." (St. John stayed in the desert afterwards, too)

1 Corinthians 15:25: "For He must reign until He has put all enemies under His feet" (Christ will reign forever and ever!)

1 Timothy 4:13: "until I come, give attention to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine" (Trust me, St. Paul gave a lot of attention to doctrine after he came!)

Revelation 2:25-26: "But hold fast what you have until I come. And he who overcomes and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power" (we should hold fast and obey even after Jesus returns)
And there are more examples. See what Origen (A.D. 185-232) had to say about the use of the word "until" in his Commentary on the Gospel of Matthew. In this work, he refutes those who think "that the promise of the Saviour prescribes a limit of time to their not tasting of death, namely, that they will not taste of death "until" they see the Son of man coming in His own kingdom." Read also what St. Jerome (A.D. 340-430) wrote on the same topic.





Firstborn:

Some Protestants say that the use of the word "firstborn" indicates that Mary had other children, but they are simply being ignorant of Jewish law, Pidyon ha-Ben in particular.

Pidyon ha-Ben is the "Redemption of the Firstborn," who were to have been consecrated to God and serve as priests and Temple workers.

The "firstborn" is the male child that "opens the womb". If the child that "opens the womb" is a female child, there is no "firstborn" for the family because the child that "opened the womb" is not a masculine child. If no more children are born after the firstborn, the firstborn still has the status and title of "firstborn." The relevant Torah verses are:

Exodus 13:2
Sanctify unto me all the firstborn, whatsoever openeth the womb among the children of Israel, both of man and of beast: it is mine.

Exodus 13:14-15
And it shall be when thy son asketh thee in time to come, saying, What is this? that thou shalt say unto him, By strength of hand the LORD brought us out from Egypt, from the house of bondage: And it came to pass, when Pharaoh would hardly let us go, that the LORD slew all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both the firstborn of man, and the firstborn of beast: therefore I sacrifice to the LORD all that openeth the matrix, being males; but all the firstborn of my children I redeem.

Numbers 18:15
Every thing that openeth the matrix in all flesh, which they bring unto the LORD, whether it be of men or beasts, shall be thine: nevertheless the firstborn of man shalt thou surely redeem, and the firstling of unclean beasts shalt thou redeem.

Though the "Golden Calf" incident left the Temple roles to the Levites (see Numbers 8:14-18 and Numbers 18:15-16), the significance of the "firstborn" status remains to this day, and those who have this position must be "redeemed," which is done when the child is 31 days old by paying a small sum to a kohein (now a rabbi in the post-Temple Pharisaism known as Judaism). Luke 2:27 tells us of Jesus' Pidyon ha-Ben, "And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law..."

Do a Google search for Pidyon ha-Ben to find out how the "Redemption of the Firstborn" is still practiced today , or if you can't believe a Catholic, ask a Jew what "firstborn" means.

Answer 10

No..she was until she gave birth to Jesus...

Answer 11

Mary and Joseph did not have sexual relations before the birth of Jesus but they did afterwards because Jesus had half siblings.