Another dogfight!! AV-8B vs. F-16C. Who wins?

Question

My guess is that the pilot who has mastered his machine can win this--either aircraft, but consider all the advantages of each of these highly maneuverable aircraft. Because of the Harrier's short legs, we will limit the combat to 15 minutes or less.

The Harrier is allowed to use vectored thrust and the Falcon is allowed to use its speed and climb rate.

Who gets a victory roll and who gets to occupy the smoking hole in the ground?

Unquestionably the Viper has speed advantages along with other high-end traits.

But, if I'm the Harrier pilot, I will use the unique capabilities of the AV-8 to make myself a very difficult target, and I will try to get inside my opponent's head.

I can do some things he can't do. I can stop in flight. I can rotate 180 degrees and scoot off in the opposite direction. I can pull up and rise while backing my jet. So, if I'm a smart Harrier driver I can win. And not through just plain luck, either.

But if I'm a smart Falcon pilot I can win also.

A lot of really good answers, but most of those who say the F-16 will win overrate its speed advantage.

Given a high-end tactical situation the F-16 has all the advantages. But neither the Harrier nor the F-16 take battle damage very well. So getting a good hit on your opponent wins the day.

If I'm in the F-16 I try to draw the fight somewhere up above 5,000 feet, the higher the better. And I keep the speed up and keep turning, climbing, and always keep my opponent in sight. I go for a gun kill if I can get one.

If I am the Harrier jock I take the battle low. I hug the earth. I hide, I use my vectored thrust. Maybe I even land if I can find a spot where I'm hard to see.

My opponent has to worry about me but he also has to worry about hitting the ground. I go for either a gun kill or a missile kill using the Sidewinder missiles I carry. Most of the time a hit is a kill.

Anyone who says the Harrier was never designed for dogfights is right. But it is flexible.

As always the best air combat aid is a smart and well-trained pilot. US Marine Harrier pilots do play dogfight games in the AV-8, as do their counterparts in most other services.

The Harrier is an outstanding close air support machine, but is also a well-crafted aircraft.

Drawbacks to the Harrier: somewhat poor cockpit visibility, fragile design, and very squirrelly handling at low speeds. But it is the one well-armed fighter that can outmaneuver an F-16, and you take the battle where maneuverability wins the day.

F-16 drawbacks--fragile design, single engine, and not much else. One of the world's best fighters, more than 30 years after its first flight. But again, the pilot is the essential ingredient.

Thanks for all the great answers.

Answer 1

The only time the Harrier has been used in air to air traditional dogfighting was in the Falklands conflict of 1982.

In that instance the version of the Harrier used was the Royal Navy Sea Harrier which was a hybrid weapons platform, slightly smaller and less powerful than the AV8B used by the U.S., and was never designed to be a dogfighter.

It was only used because the Brits couldnt get any proper fighters within range.

They were up against a mixed bag of Argentine fighters, including very new and capable French built Mirages and Israeli Daggers flown by excellent U.S trained pilots.

The Harriers absolutely kicked *** and only lost two aircraft (to ground fire) whilst bringing down ten times their number of Argentine aircraft.

What the dogfighting proved was that speed and power were not that important except for getting to and from the battle.

In a dog fight maoueverability is king.

Funnily enough no-one apart from the U.S Marines were buying the Harrier before the Falklands but the were queueing up afterwards....

Sorry...forgot to answer the question.

If the pilots were equal the F16 would probably win on weaponry carried, and the ability to kill the Harrier before a dogfight even starts. Nothing to do with speed as once a dogfight starts speed can become a disavantage.

The Harrier was never designed to be a air superiority fighter but when the Brits had to use it as one it did very well thanks!!

Answer 2

Well the Harrier wasn't designed for this type of engagement so it's just at to much of a disadvantage. The F-16 wins hands down no ifs ands or buts about it. The first reason is the F-16 carries longer range air to air weapons and can take out the harrier before getting close enough to receive fire. The second reason is the Harrier can't stop and turn around on a dime then just scoot off in the opposite direction. This maneuver takes time which makes the plane a sitting duck target. Third the F-16 can climb out higher then the Harrier so it could just circle at max altitude and rain steel showers down on the harrier from a place so far above the harrier it can't return fire.

Answer 3

I'd bet on F-16. Harrier is just too slow for it. The dogfight between AV-8 and F-16 would end within 5 mins because F-16 can use AARAAM. AV-8 is better off providing CAS.

Answer 4

thats like comparing a world war 1 folker with... a F-22

Lets look at a couple of things. For one thing the AV-8B as i have heard is not all that fast. I might be wrong but i thought i heard once that it doesnt even have afterburner.

In a pole done in the mid 90's 100 pilots were asked, if they could take any aircraft in the world into a dog fight, what would they choose.

F-16 falcon won by a landslide.
It is said to be able to do things (turns, climbs) that most planes would stall trying to accomplish.


so just realize that

Answer 5

I would say the F16 would easily win. The AV8 is not a true fighter plane, not as fast and has a limited range...