Christians; Can you provide some proof of God that cannot get stuck in the Science filters?

Question

...and that does not require "faith" to deem it true?

You constantly use "arguments" to prove us Atheists "wrong", such as "You cannot see air but you know it exists" or "Everything can't come from nothing" (ignoring the fact that even gods fall into the word 'everything')....

Most of your arguments can be countered with scientific arguments or alternative explanations; you only back them with "faith", circular reasoning* and a book...







* "God exists because the Bible says so, and God wrote the Bible, because the Bible says so.."

Christians; your poor spelling and syntactical skills show the even poorer value of your retort attempts....

Holy Guacamole, Occam, Laura!!!

We're surrounded by the body snatchers!!!

Answer 1

Lex Fok wrote: "Everything can't come from nothing" (ignoring the fact that even gods fall into the word 'everything')...."

We're not ignoring that fact that God can't come from nothing. God didn't come from nothing -- he didn't come from anything -- he's eternal, which means he has a uncaused existence.

I find the big stumbling block for a lot of people (like Dawkins and others) who argue that the proofs for God are not logically coherent, is that it never occurred to them that there can be "things" that exist with an uncaused existence. So they think the arguments are illogical, but that is only because they don't fully understand them.

What is meant by "everything can't come from nothing" is that the starting point for existence in the universe can't be nothing. It is not logical that nothing can be the cause of anything -- so the starting point for existence in the universe cannot be nothing. You can't start with nothing -- and then have the universe pop into existence from a nothing. Something has to exist eternally for there to exist anything at all. So, one either argues for an eternal God, or an eternal universe -- one of them has to exist eternally (uncaused) to explain existence.

The next step is to determine (observe) what type of existence our universe has -- a caused existence, or an uncaused existence. A caused or uncaused existence implies certain existential characteristics, and things that fall into either category will exhibit these existential qualities. If one could show that the universe has an uncaused existence -- then one would not need God to explain existence. One could point to the fact that the universe is eternal (uncaused) and therefore its existence is explained without a cause being necessary for it. If one can show that the universe has a caused existence, then God (a creator) will be needed to explain existence. Again, one of them has to have an uncaused eternal existence -- the starting point can't be nothing.

Let's observe how the universe exists.

If our universe had an uncaused existence then we would not observe causes making changes. Since we do observe causes making changes, our universe must have a caused existence. Secondly, we know that F=MA (Force = Mass x Acceleration) -- objects can be accelerated, motion can be caused in them, so motion in our universe is caused too. Since these things show us we live in caused universe, the universe must have a starting point -- which means it's created. Something that has a caused existence means at one time it never existed and had to be caused to be.

God, a creator is therefore the necessary answer to the problem of existence.

Note:

If someone says "God made everything", obviously, from the context of the sentence it means everything other than himself. The word "made" implies a previous existence for God -- he has to exist to be able to "cause" or make something. God must exist outside the universe since he existed before the universe and created it. This is why we say that God is transcendent to the universe, not part of it in that his existence would be radically different than the type of created existence we observe in the universe. One would expect an uncaused eternal existence that can create matter and motion (out-of-nothing) would be radically different than the caused finite existences we observe in the universe.

Answer 2

Well, the problem is that the science filters in and of themselves are weak mental constructions of created beings. Hense these lowly "aids" obstruct the truth by their very existance and make what could be a relatively easy explaination virtually impossible by their construction. For example, one lives in a house that has a roof that prevents the rain for ruining ones life. Therefore it is impossible to have normal life without a roof. Likewise many assumptions we take as a given in these filters eg we have to have a roof for normal life are an obstruction for unobstucted observation of reality. Many of these scientific "truth assumptions" have been drilled into our heads from infancy most of us are genuinely terrified discarding all the science as most likely rubbish probably for security blanket type reasons and the fact that many receive open derision and persecution for openly questioning the scientific status quo. As a result of all these side issues I don't think any of us, myself included, would recognize absolute truths on any of these questions if they were staring us in the face.
One thing we do know is that the intolerance of the "scientific community" is as great or greater with those who don't agree with them as it had ever been with in the church community. Try going to a college and come up with any coherent theme of life that doesn't match the science-party-line of professors- zap youu will be ostracized, ridiculed, and let go in short order.
Mention the word God to a college professor and the first thing one will often hear is "Oh God, here we go again, we have told you from childhood God doesn't and can't exist and here you go again talking about us as created beings. Damn you independent college kids, get the hell out of this campus, we have no room for God here!! Slam... as the door closes as you gingerly leave.

Answer 3

The fact that you can stand on is the proof that God exists because without God your body would return to the dirt it came from because your body contains certain amounts of all elements found in the earth.

Answer 4

let me ask you this: Where did the big bang come from?
What evidence do you have that the big bang even happened? You're just taking the scientists word for it; how is that any different really then believing God made everything? By believing the scientist's when all they have is a theory with no visible evidence you are doing the same thing as Christians- so don't judge us, please.
I don't have all the answers; but neither do you and science.

Answer 5

No they can't.

The funny thing about all of their pseudo-philosophical arguments is that they have all been refuted. It's funny to see Aquinas 5 ways used as proof of a God on here.

Reason and religion do not mix. All critical thinking skills seem to go out of the window with some people as soon as you mention god.

Answer 6

There is obviously nothing we can say that can convince you. Why do you persist in asking questions like this except to perhaps show off to your other atheist/agnostic/other friends?

BTW, I love all types of science, and especially theoretical science where it is impossible to have "proof." And, scientists themselves disagree--don't ever get between a quantum physics person and a pure energy person or you'll be in a minefield. I believe in most evolution--where I draw the line is the Big Bang Theory since besides being wrrong it is implausible and there is no "proof."

Answer 7

from what i understand if Science were HONEST there would already be proof that God exists.
but because science is NOT honest and follows a path of peer review and skeptisicsm, if not outright PEER Rejection, science will have to wait for HONESTY and true facts to represent the gospel truth.

as for "seeing" God, or jesus, or angels, I bear witness, so there MY testimony is good enough for proof. Jesus said good works also is proof. NO you dont have to go to the bible but it is the beginning of knoweldge and faith.

Answer 8

I never said God exists because the bible said so. Man said God exists because God told him so when he was writing the bible?

Answer 9

Yes there is countless proof.

First proof of all me and you, being alive - how are u living if there isnt a God, how were you made, how was man created.

Only a person who is a total idiot would fall for the "big boom" evolution crap!!!

Answer 10

So exactly how is NATURAL science supposed to identify a SUPERNATURAL Being? You don't expect chemistry to solve mathematical problems, why do you expect materialistic sciences to have ANY relevance to a supernatural Person?