Who holds the Real "Apostolic Tradition"?

Question

The Roman Catholic Church claims it traces back the lineage of their Pope and Apostolic Traditions to St. Peter. It claims to be the Mother Church. And follows Apostolic Tradition EXACTLY.

The Greek Orthodox Church of Jerusalem is regarded by Orthodox Christians as the Mother Church of all of Christendom, because it was in Jerusalem that the Church was established on the day of Pentecost with the descent of the Holy Spirit on the disciples of Jesus Christ (Acts 2:1-41). Thus, practicing Apostolic Tradition EXACTLY.

Why are they Not even in communion?
Why cast stones at the Protestants? Does this not also disqualify the Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches method of using Apostolic Tradition, since they are Divided against themselves?
Both churches make the identical claim that they follow Apostolic Tradition EXACTLY. Just like the Protestants claim to follow Sola Scriptura Exactly.
Whose "Church Authority" shall we believe? Whose Tradition
is the one we should follow

"Swiss Guard": Why should I believe Your Roman Catholic claims and Not what the Greek Orthodox Church claims?
Orthodox Churches claim to have Apostolic Succession.
Even your Pope has said they do.
Some of these Churches are Much older than the Roman Catholic.
Who should we believe?

Answer 1

follow the ones who sold everything they owned and gave the money to the poor

there *must* be some like that, right?

Answer 2

Both the Catholic (including the Western/Latin Rite and Eastern Rites) and Orthodox Churches have valid Apostolic Succession and Sacraments. They have an essential unity of belief held continuously since Christ established the Church. That is no issue, because it is not an "either/or" situation.

As for "practical unity," all members of the Orthodox traditions are welcome at the table of the Lord in the Eucharist in any Catholic Church. It is the Orthodox who restrain their members from unity of worship and authority. Sad and scandalous, true, but even today there is hope.

Location alone does not valid "capital T" tradition make.

And as to the claim that all the Orthodox accept the Orthodox Church of Jerusalem as the leader of the Orthodox communion, that is not actually the case. (And BTW, it is not "the Greek Orthodox Church of Jerusalem"). There are serious divisions among the various Orthodox communions as to who is "the first among equals." Claims to that honor are made by the Antiochean and Russian primates as well, and recently resulted in the disruption of communications among all the Bishops of the ancient Church.

There are long-held cultural and political tensions which have led to this current state of affairs, which have sadly resulted in what appear to be theological differences which have become difficult to resolve; many see these as differences of definition (and a resulting difficulty in communication) rather than a true rejection of Apostolic teaching and unity of belief.

Authority stems from Christ, as handed down through authentic succession and belief. We should look back at the historical record (both divinely inspired and those ECF's which are authoritative) to determine where that authority lies today. The record is clear about primacy; assent to the ancient beliefs and Apostolic succession are present in both (what is today known as) the Catholic Church and in the Eastern Churches. Settling the other issues will be a blessing on our times.

Answer 3

According to Saint Paul you do. The word Catholic means "all embracing," or "according to the whole." Holy means "set aside for God," and the communion of saints is clearly in Revelations and implied in the Gospels. Paul asks for the saints to pray for him. Any church which splits off is by definition not all embracing, it rejects embracing all hence the 4200 independent Protestant denominations in the US, all of which have been invited back into the Catholic Church. According to the whole means the belief must have been held across all time and place, anyone who splits from these beliefs is not Catholic. The word Catholic was well in use by the year 100 and seems to be a synthesis of what Paul taught. Further, 2 John prohibits changes from tradition. For example, you do not get to make up your own service since the apostles left services for use which are still in use to this day. I am not Christian, but I have read all of the ancient documents. Except to Protestants, because Luther removed them, it is clear that starting your own group is strictly forbidden or changing the leadership of the group from the apostolic leadership created by Jesus and the Twelve (see for example the ordination of Mathias in Acts). It isn't optional. In what of Jesus' sayings is there a statement you can stop sharing brotherly love and communion with another over intellectual differences on the importance of foot washing (to give an example from the Anabaptists). In what of Jesus' sayings are you permitted to stop sharing communion, except the excommunication one? That one would imply self excommunication makes one non-Christian by the act of being Protestant. This isn't a creedal issue, this is a scriptural issue and clearly is forbidden by all the early writings both inside and outside scripture. It is the only way, until Luther. As a neutral outsider, the answer is absolutely clear, yes this must be believed to be Christian. It must also be practiced to be Christian.

Answer 4

Neither one holds the apostolic tradition. The Orthodox church may be closer. There are some older churches in the Middle East. The Assyrian church is much older than either.

Answer 5

I guess I would like your definition of "apostolic tradition". It is kind of a flexible term that can used to justify all kinds of things. As a reformed believer, I place Scripture above all kinds of tradition. It is the final authority. The Church authority we follow is Christ and the words of Scripture. We do have pastors and elders that we willing subject to, but they are not on a higher spiritual plain then anyone else.

Col 2:8 Watch that there not be one robbing you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the elements of the world, and not according to Christ.
Col 2:9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;
Col 2:10 and having been filled, you are in Him, who is the Head of all rule and authority,

Answer 6

It's unfortunate that we live in a day when, even if Christianity is the true religion, it is difficult to tell who holds the truth of it.

I could write you a long reply about the apostolic tradition, what it is for, and how you can find out who agress with it most, but you wouldn't have time to follow the instructions because the study would take years. Instead, let me suggest what Jesus suggested: "You will know them by your fruit."

Christianity is marked by love and unity. Jesus said you would know his disciples by their love for one another. Where do you find people claiming to be disciples who love one another like Jesus' disciples did and who live a way you recognize to be righteous? Where you find them, you have found the possessors of the apostolic tradition.

Answer 7

Jesus promised, "I will build my Church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it" (Matt. 16:18). This means that his Church will never be destroyed and will never fall away from him. His Church will survive until his return.

Among the Christian churches, only the Catholic Church has existed since the time of Jesus. Every other Christian church is an offshoot of the Catholic Church. The Eastern Orthodox churches broke away from unity with the pope in 1054. The Protestant churches were established during the Reformation, which began in 1517. (Most of today’s Protestant churches are actually offshoots of the original Protestant offshoots.) Only the Catholic Church existed in the tenth century, in the fifth century, and in the first century, faithfully teaching the doctrines given by Christ to the apostles, omitting nothing.

Jesus’ Church is called catholic ("universal" in Greek) because it is his gift to all people. He told his apostles to go throughout the world and make disciples of "all nations" (Matt. 28:19–20). For 2,000 years the Catholic Church has carried out this mission, preaching the good news that Christ died for all men and that he wants all of us to be members of his universal family (Gal. 3:28). Nowadays the Catholic Church is found in every country of the world and is still sending out missionaries to "make disciples of all nations" (Matt. 28:19). The Church Jesus established was known by its most common title, "the Catholic Church," at least as early as the year 107, when Ignatius of Antioch used that title to describe the one Church Jesus founded. The title apparently was old in Ignatius’s time, which means it went all the way back to the time of the apostles.

http://www.catholic.com/library/Pillar.asp

Answer 8

You address several divisions in Churches.

In truth the Orthodox, Catholic & Protestants are all generally the same. It is the non-catholic, non-protestant groups that set themsevles apart. The reformers were a blend of Catholics and non-cathlolic believers in their respective eras.


Synopsis

1. Churches according to the New Testament model are started by the Apostles and their team members. These churches as a whole strictly followed the traditions of the Apostles in doctrine and practice. This happened in the 1st Century.

2. In the 3rd Century those who lapsed in their faith and worshiped the Emperor to escape persecution, then wanted back into their local churches respectively, once persecution had ended. Those churches who accepted them became the Lapsi Churches. Emperor Constantine organized them under his leadership in 325 A.D. to create the Catholic Church. At this point there are two groups of churches. The 1st Century Cathari, and the 3rd Century Lapsi.

3. From 1179 A.D. and onward the Lapsi/Catholic Reformers left the Catholic Church and joined with the ancient Cathari/Good Men churches. Many churches joined forces with Peter Waldo, yet at the same time many ancient Cathari/Good Men rejected such a move. The most famous Catholic Reformer in time became Martin Luther.

At the point where he makes his mark in Church History there are three pre-existing groups of churches:
= the 1st century Cathari/Pure
= the 3rd century Lapsi/Catholic (of which Martin Luther was a part in 1517)
= the 12th century mixture of the two Reformers/Protestants (Which joined Him for protection from persecution in 1525). Martin Luther joined the 3rd group to himself, gave them political power, and made them famous.

In 1517 - he was already frustrated with the Catholic Church. It was in this year that he mailed a letter of the 95 thesis to the man in charge of collecting Papal Indulgences. He became a seeker, and was influenced and had personal contact with the Cathari churches in his area.

In 1525, he made a pact with Peter Waldo's 350 year old half Lapsi/half Cathari churches. In promise for protection from persecution, they completely refomed and joined him accepting his watered down version of Catholicism in place of Peter Waldo's which offered no protection. This is the primary source of his immediate and large grass-roots power base in Germany.

Almost immediately he began persecution the ancient Cathari who refused to submit to him. John Calvin in Switzerland would follow his example. So what relation did our spiritual ancestors have with the reformers? They kept their distance from them. They refused to compromise with them. They were persecuted for their stand for doctrinal purity and practice by the Reformers. So it is an absurd claim that we came from them or were part of them.
The Catholic Version of History is the most accepted because they are the government churches, they fight the wars, and the victor writes history.

To this day the Catholic Church plays on all the confusion and calls our Good Men of Old nothing but Protestants. However, our men never protested or joined anything. Our churches continue according to the New Testament model, strictly following the traditions of the Apostles in doctrine and practice which were started in the 1st Century.

Answer 9

The Believers!
Mark 16:17-18
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.