If you know x is going to happen, can you stop x from happening?

Question

No, you cannot. If you could, you would be wrong when you knew it was going to happen.

This is why God cannot be omniscient and omnipotent. If he were omniscient, the future would be set in stone and he wouldn't be able to change it. That would mean he wasn't omnipotent.

Mr. Realtee: No, you can't stop it. Remember, you KNOW it's going to happen. That means it will happen no matter what you do, no matter how hard you try, no matter what details you have.

Hope: Exactly, which is why God can't be omnipotent. The future is laid out and he couldn't change it.

Marooned: Who said this was my best argument against omnipotence? It's not, even though it's sufficient. In any event, you're wrong. Knowing what will happen IS the same thing as making it happen if you are God and you created the universe. You created it in such a way that the event would happen, and knew it would result. Therefore you made it happen.

Tylertxn: In that case, x still happens so you didn't stop it. That's not a solution.

Pernelle: Free will is irrelevant to what I'm talking about.

Hope: It doesn't matter if time flows for him. If it doesn't, it only makes matters worse for you because then the future has already happened as far as he's concerned. He can't change what already happened.

Mr Realitee: No, you can't. You are confusing "suspect" with "know". Knowing it will happen means that it will happen. If it happens, then you didn't know it would happen. Humans cannot have this knowledge but God can.

Simon T: What you know is that IF it rolls off the edge you will have a mess. "If" is the key. That is different from knowing you will have a mess. In the first case you can stop it, in the second you cannot.

shewrite: If you stop the bank from doing that, then you didn't know the check would bounce - because it didn't bounce. You guys don't get it.

Shewrite: You put the "if" in there and it completely changes the situation.

Hope: Wrong on your edit2. Omniscience means more than that. It means you also know which choice is made, not merely the outcome of a given choice.

Mr. Realitee: Not sure what you mean with the math to be honest with you. Where do I say anything like 1+1=0 or 0+0=0? Where do you say anything like 1+1=2?

Answer 1

You are leaving out the "free will' part of the argument. God allows things to happen, thought he COULD stop them, because humans have free will and are able to act in whatever hateful and idiotic ways they choose.
Of course, I agree with you, just had to point out the flaw in your logic when it comes to this matter.
Have a Blessed day!
Edit: I don't think free will is irrelevant here. Free will is the given 'reason' for god's inaction when he could stop something from happening. It has to be included in an argument about god's omnipotence. And, while we're at it, so does the "we can't know the mind of god' argument. Which is why I don't believe in that kind of god anymore - I need one that makes sense, at least some of the time.

Answer 2

define what you mean by "know x is going to happen"

If I see an egg rolling across my kitchen counter, I know that when it reaches the edge I am going to have a big mess to clean up.

So a reach over and stop the egg, or catch it on the way down.

I knew what was going to happen and I acted to stop it.

An omnipotent and omnicognizant god is a theoretical possibility.

However, looking at the world, the Lord moves in such a mysterious way as to be totally indistinguishable from a vicious, mean and sadistic god. Or, in fact, no god whatsoever.

He is omnicognizant, so he knows our doubts and the reasons for them.

He is omnipotent, so it would be quite possible for him to write the words "I am real, get over it. Signed, God" in letters of diamond 500 feet tall that ran right the way through the Rocky mountains. I would think that this would be considered sufficient proof for the vast majority of people.

He is all loving, so he does not do tha above, but allows the majority of the world population to be sent to hell to suffer for eternity.



I still do not quite get that last bit. Oh well, mysterious ways I guess.

Answer 3

If I write a check and I realize that I don't have enough money in the account to cover it, and I *know* that the bank will bounce my check if I don't have the money in the account when the check is processed, if I get to the bank *before* the check is processed and deposit the money, didn't I stop the bank from bouncing my check?

Edit: It can be a matter of my choice as to whether I'm gonna book to the bank in time. It is conditional -- a lot of things are.
But the bank WILL bounce my check if I don't make it in time.

Oh yeah, free will when it comes to God's relationship with us.

Answer 4

If you could have a dream where you could be ANYTHING you wanted - at first, you would have all kinds of cool powers and grand, high falutin' material objects.

Then things coming so easily would become boring after a time. So you would create little challenges and obstacles for yourself.

After enough time, you would dream about being someone exactly as you are now. That's where the real challenges and joys lie.

God is asleep and enjoying a wonderful dream where it pretends to be us.

Answer 5

Ya... what you said. HOWEVER, I disagree, if you KNOW that x is going to happen and all the factors, where, when, what, how and so on, YES you CAN stop x from happening. And it would not be wrong to stop it either.

Edit: Mean Bot: Your logic is flawed. You're talking about a paradox or predestiny. Logically speaking, if you know x is going to happen and the details AND have the power, free will, whatever to change the outcome, yes, you can stop x from happening. Think about it. A theory is just a theory, not fact. When you have the facts (information) and and ability to stop something, you can do it.

Edit 2: Before I go further, thanks for the interesting topic. Now, this is your riddle: first you said that 1+1=0 and I said that 1+1=2 (that's a fact, btw and I KNOW it). "Suspect" (your theory) vs. "Know" (my fact). However, now you're saying that 0+0=0! How can I argue with that? Religion vs. Science or Philosophy. Who's right and who's wrong?

Answer 6

What if there was another dimension of time completely detached from our view. If you were to step outside of our dimension and into the one beyond you would be able to view past, present and future as one moment.

*edit* no, not if he doesn't share our concept of time so "future" in his terms isn't the same as in ours

*edit2*Omniscient means he knows what the end result would be if a different path or choice were selected at every potential decision making nexus.

Answer 7

You assume that causality exists along a time line. Perhaps if you know x is going to happen and have a choice "stop x" or "don't stop" x--if you stopped x from happening you create a new time line--now there are two from this one event--one in which x was stopped and one which wasn't--perhaps this is the meaning of free will.

Answer 8

This is why I don't buy the freewill crap. If the future is in stone, then we really don't have freewill. Our choices are not choices at all. There never was any other path we could have gone down.

Answer 9

Some of you people spend way too much time with your fingers in your navels trying to define, explain, prove, disprove and smear God, when all the time you could be experiencing God. What a waste!

Answer 10

Your argument only works in your own limited finite understanding of a linear time.

In the infinite - where one day is like a thousand years and a thousand years is like a day - time is more circular.