Question for Torah-observant Messianic Jews?

Question

What is your opinion of the New Perspective on Paul?

Ya`akov, according to Messianic Jews, Jesus embraced the Torah, and lived a sinless life under the Torah. I was asking Messianic Jews, not non-Messianic Jews, what they think about the New Perspective on Paul in relation to their views about Torah observance and justification by faith.

Messianic Judaism is a subbranch (i.e. denomination) of Christianity. Typically Messianic Jews are Torah observant.

Answer 1

So does this mean that you only want answers from people who are guaranteed to LIKE Paul?

Edit: As a convert to Judaism, I must agree with the people below me. There is no such thing as a "Messianic Jew," except people who, for unknown reasons, want to call themselves Jews, but do NOT want to be bound by the covenant. If you don't have the guts to take the plunge, then don't call yourselves Jews. If you DO have the guts, then it includes nothing about Jesus. You're either a Jew, or you're a Christian, but "Messianic Jew" is just plain pathetic.

You wouldn't expect Buddhists to define what Christians are, would you? Then don't expect US to allow Christians to define what JEWS are. If you want to join us, then do it fully. If not, then call yourselves what you are - CHRISTIANS. No Jew would call you a Jew if you believe in Jesus.

To suggest that Messianic Jews are Torah-observant is too laughable to even comment. Try listening to someone besides Zola Levitt before you call yourself Torah-observant - you might actually LEARN something.

Answer 2

sorry you've gotten so many ''you're not really a jew'' answers. i knew that would happen when i starred this question. i'm not messianic (like the first christians were), though i did consider it for a time, so i hope you don't mind me answering. as for paul's name being changed, it never happened. there was no change. it's simply that the hebrew name sha'ul is translated into latin as paulus. he was a roman citizen. my full name is andrew. i work with a lot of hispanic people, and some of them call me andres. it's the same thing with st paul.

about the doctrine of sola fide (justification by faith alone); st paul was simply saying that we don't earn righteousness through good works, but it's a kind of biproduct of loving God wholeheartedly. knowing myself as i do, if i were born into a jewish family and had been raised to believe that i had to be observant of all 613 commandments at all time in order to gain God's favor, and then discovered the truth about our Messiah and started learning about the new covenant, i would probably be overjoyed to find out that love is the ultimate fulfillment of the law, but i do know that many jews are taught to that it is an honor to share the law with the rest of the world, so i can't really do much but guess. i wish i could answer your question better, but like i said, i wasn't raised jewish (or christian for that matter), so all i can do is try to put myself in another person's shoes.

peace,
drew

Answer 3

Please don't add to this madness by calling Christians 'messianic jews'. They are not Jewish.

If a person embraces Jesus as messiah, they cannot be Jewish - because that directly contravenes Judaic law, practise, and theology.

If someone calls themselves 'jewish' and then goes around distorting and misrepresenting Judaism, they are not Jewish.

A person is Jewish only if:

1) they convert to Judaism
2)they are born to a Jewish mother

Judaism defines who is Jewish. Christians cannot define this, it is the height of arrogance. 'messianic jews' ARE CHRISTIAN.

edit - if they are a 'subsection of Christianity, they should not be calling themselves 'messianic jews'. It is highly misleading at best, and deceitful at worst.

Answer 4

Please read Deuteronomy chapter 13 verses 2 through 12 for my take on Jesus. Jesus was a Jew who tried to seduce Israel away from the Torah, so this passage in Deuteronomy refers to him. I don't care how many 'miracles' Jesus performed, or how much he 'prophesied', for me the clincher comes when he told his followers not to obey the Torah of Moshe.

The Torah has nothing to say about Bhudda or Muhammed. They were not Jews, so the passage of Deuteronomy chapter 13 verses 2 through 12 does not apply to them.

Saul was a Jew travelling to Damascus to try and suppress the new cult of Christianity. During his journey, he appears to suffer what can only kindly be called a seizure, which left him with the new name of Paul and a few loose marbles in his head.

As for whether the new Christians were Jews, I quote

אף אל פי חטא ישראל הוא

which means, once a Jew, always a Jew. There is no way for a Jew to cease losing his Jewish status. He can become an apostate Jew by taking another religion, but he still remains a Jew, so, like it or not, he is in jail with the rest of us...

Orthodox Jews are messianic, but we don't believe that the Messiah has come yet, i.e.
אני מאמין באמונה שלומה ב ביאת המושיע אף אל פי הוא המתנה
I believe in the coming of Moshiah with complete faith, even though he tarries. This is one of the 13 principles of our faith.

Answer 5

If you're interested, this is a forum for Messianic Jews, you may find more answers here...

http://foru.ms/f34-the-messianic-forum.html

Answer 6

The real Paul McCartney died in 1966 and was replaced by a look and sound-alike.

Answer 7

Let's be really clear: "Messianic Jews" are **not** Jewish, **neither** are they Torah-observant.

Most Jewish scholars agree that you cannot convert away from Judaism (there are a minority who say you can convert away). However, this by no means implies that a Jew who joins another religion has the same standing as a Jew who has remained Jewish. A Jew who practices another religion, whether it be Christianity (in any of its forms, including Messianic "Judaism"), Islam or anything else, is known as an "apostate." An apostate is someone who has removed themselves from the Jewish people by joining another faith. The apostate cannot be buried in a Jewish cemetery. Nor can the apostate be counted for a minyan, the minimum of ten adult Jews (or adult Jewish men, depending on one's denomination) needed for saying certain prayers. For nearly all practical purposes, they have the same status in the Jewish community as non-Jews. The only differences is that they do not have to undergo a full conversion to rejoin the Jewish community, though there is a process known as "Teshuvah" that they must go through to come back to the Jewish community with full Jewish status.
So, once we delve into Jewish law we see that a Jew who joins another religion, though still Jewish, has ostensibly the status of a non-Jew and is no longer able to participate as a full member of the Jewish community. The apostate has the weakest of all grasps to their Jewish identity, they are Jewish by birth but otherwise have no position in the Jewish community.
This then brings us to a discussion on the difference between "doing Jewish" and "being Jewish." By "doing Jewish", I am referring to someone who is actually practicing Jewish beliefs and laws. By "being Jewish", I mean someone who has been born Jewish. Now, there are many people who are born Jewish but are not practicing Judaism. For instance, if a Jewish person murders a family, the Jewish person may be "born Jewish" but certainly was not "doing Jewish" as murder is a violation of the Ten Commandments.

Similarly, we can see examples of this in the Jewish Bible. The prime example of this would be the Jews who worshipped the Golden Calf at Mount Sinai. These individuals were unquestionably Jewish by their birth, thus we can argue that they were "being Jewish." However, were they "doing Jewish?" The Bible is quite clear that these individuals, though born Jewish, were not practicing Judaism. The worship of the Golden Calf, though it was a monotheistic form of worship, was clearly a violation of the Biblical law regarding the making of idols. Thus, they were not "doing Jewish." Similarly, in the Prophets we see countless reprimands of people who were undeniably Jewish by birth, but had entered into apostasy by worshipping gods such as Baal and Ashtoret. They were not "doing Jewish" but "doing pagan" and had violated the very underpinning of Judaism. That they were "being Jewish" by their birth was clearly not sufficient. One must also "do Jewish" in their actions.
Along the same lines, many of Jesus' original followers were unquestionably born Jewish. However, by adopting non-Jewish beliefs, such as thinking that Jesus was a god (a violation of several places in the Jewish Bible, Numbers 23:19 and Hoshea 11:9 provide a few examples of this), were no longer "doing Jewish." The same is true for individuals in the Messianic movement today. The Messianic movement was created by Christianity, and its beliefs and values reflect Christianity. By practicing Messianic "Judaism", the individual who was "born Jewish" is no longer "doing Jewish." They have removed themselves from the Jewish community by their practice and beliefs. Unfortunately, too few of these individuals have an understanding of the difference between "being Jewish" and "doing Jewish", mistakenly believing that they can both believe in Jesus and still have the same status in Jewish community as before. They not only have lost status, but also have lost the practice of Judaism. As has been pointed out in the Talmud, the emphasis for us is on the action, the "doing Jewish.

This is taken from the reference section of this article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews_for_Jesus

1. “"We believe that Jewishness is a birthright. It is inherited from our parents. Our people are not of one culture; we have diverse cultural expressions (Ashkenazi/Sephardi, Georgian/Russian, Ethiopian, Persian, etc.). Our people are not of one religion. While Judaism might be the traditional religion for many Jewish people, Jews are still considered Jewish even though they might be atheists or even if they embrace other beliefs. Those who say that Jews who believe in Jesus are errant Jews or misguided Jews are entitled to their opinions. But they are not entitled to negate our Jewishness. We are Jews by birth and that cannot change."
2. "There is virtual unanimity across all denominations [of Judaism] that Jews for Jesus are not Jewish." (Kaplan, Dana Evan. The Cambridge Companion to American Judaism, Cambridge University Press, Aug 15, 2005, pp. 139-140).
3. "For most American Jews, it is acceptable to blend some degree of foreign spiritual elements with Judaism. The one exception is Christianity, which is perceived to be incompatible with any form of Jewishness. Jews for Jesus and other Messianic Jewish groups are thus seen as antithetical to Judaism and are completely rejected by the majority of Jews". (Kaplan, Dana Evan. The Cambridge Companion to American Judaism, Cambridge University Press, Aug 15, 2005, p. 9).
4. Jewish groups:
o "To make the record clear, Jews for Jesus is a Christian missionary organization – period." Jews for Jesus: Jewish or Christian? You Decide, Jews for Judaism website, retrieved September 11, 2006.
o "Messianic Jewish organizations, such as Jews for Jesus, often refer to their faith as fulfilled Judaism, in that they believe Jesus fulfilled the Messianic prophecies. Although Messianic Judaism claims to be Jewish, and many adherents observe Jewish holidays, most Jews regard Messianic Judaism as deceptive at best, fraudulent at worst. They charge that Messianic Judaism is actually Christianity presenting itself as Judaism." (Balmer, Randall. Encyclopedia of Evangelicalism, Baylor University Press, Nov 2004, p. 448).