The catholic church and early church fathers?

Question

I have seen on here many times the quote by Ignatius where he mentions the catholic church. However is this church the Roman Catholic Church? I propose the answer is no. It means literally what he said, a universal church of all believers. He says where Jesus is the universal (catholic) church is there. However since this was over 200 years before the RCC came into existence how could he be referring to them?

"Let no one do anything of concern to the Church without the bishop. Let that be considered a valid Eucharist which is celebrated by the bishop or by one whom he ordains [i.e., a presbyter]. Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the universal Church" (Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 [A.D. 110]).

(I took a small liberty with the above quote. In the original Ignatius says catholic. Catholic theologians do not tranlsate this word and capatilize it. Which it was not orignaly. Thus I changed it to universal which is its meaning)

So what do you think? Does his quote mean the RCC?

maria - Actually the early church fathers are one thing that would keep me from ever joining the RCC. They would not recognize the RCC and their traditions. I think they would be much more at home in a nice non-denominational church.

Adoptive Father - Peter had no idea what a Pope was. And the RCC denomination was founded in the 4th century. The church Jesus founded which is a universal church of all believers was much earlier. The Christians in the RCC are just one part of that church.

MaH - Study your history. The Eucharist was hotly debated for over 1200 years. It was finally settled after the church threatened to kill those who disagreed.

Answer 1

No, he was referring to followers of Christ overall. The Bishop of Antioch was martyred for his faith in Christ. He knew all the apostles and was a disciple of the apostle John. Ignatius gave credence to the Scripture by the way he based his faith in the accuracy of the Bible. He had an ample material and witnesses to support the trustworthiness of the Scriptures.

Answer 2

What makes you think that they would not recognize the Church for what it is? Isn't that just your interpretation of what "a nice non-denominational church" would be? Kind of like what your interpretation of "when the Church began" is. The Church began when Christ instituted it with the Apostles, of which Peter was the head, just as there is a head of the Church now. You WANT it to be some other time, but the truth is that the Church that Christ founded is continuous in time in what is now commonly known as the Catholic Church.

Did the early Church Fathers take Christ as His word when he said "This IS my body?" Yes, they did. Does your "nice non-denominational" congregation? No, they do not. Focus on your misconceptions about who Catholics worship, Church organization, etc. all you want, but the fact is that only the Catholics and the Orthodox have apostolic succession, and only they celebrate a valid Eucharist.

That is what the Early Church Fathers would look for, and that is what they will find in the Catholic Church today.

So

Answer 3

Compare the beliefs of the early church fathers to those of the RCC.

The early fathers believed in the Eucharistic Real Presence; so does the RCC.

The early fathers believed in sacramental confession; so does the RCC.

The early fathers recognized the authority of the pope; so does the RCC.

I could go on.

Lets examine your logic for a second.

The general universal church you refer to would have to match the protestant model of today for modern protestantism to have any credibility. It would mean the early church was non-denominational of sorts, each developing their own doctrines, traditions, beliefs, etc.

The snag, though, is Jesus. When did He ever teach one apostle differently than the other? When did He ever say it was okay for them to interpret His teachings how they wanted and teach their version to others? Didn't Jesus instead teach ONE faith and set down ONE Church? Didn't He want the faithful to be unified, to be one, as He and the Father "are one"?

Comparing how Jesus did things to how protestants do things shows a glaring difference. Comparing the same things to how the RCC does things and we see striking similarities, striking unity. Which one matches better?

God bless.

Answer 4

Jesus founded one church. This church is known as Catholic or universal. We Catholics hold that the church was founded by Jesus in the Book of Matthew when he stated that he would build His church upon the rock that is Peter. In addition, He gave the keys to the kingdom to Peter. In the book of John, Jesus states that he wants us all to be one.

Christ's followers did not fracture into denominations until centuries later.

Apparently we disagree about Peter being the first Pope and the (Roman) Catholic church being founded in the fourth century AD.

EDIT: The title Pope comes from the Latin (or is it Italian?) word for Father. You know, call no man father. In Acts chapter 15 Peter acts as the spokesman for the Apostles and Disciples. Call him whatever you like, he was their leader.

Answer 5

<> something our faith compells us to do is "inspired". <> definite, faith inspired the Church Fathers to do what they did, and to place in writing what they wrote. besides the incontrovertible fact that, to declare their writings have been "inspired" in the say way Biblical textual content textile is inspired - the actuality their writings do no longer look in the Bible shows their proposal grew to become into no longer the comparable simply by fact the Biblical authors.

Answer 6

that is usually how people are converted to the catholic church, by reading the early church fathers who spoke of the same beliefs we hold as true in the same catholic chruch.

Answer 7

yes,,