Why are Catholics & Mormons so stubborn when it comes to being born again?

Question

That being born again is being water baptized into their Church?

Then they write John3 & don't write the whole thing & say this proves that being born again means being water baptized in their Church?

Jesus clearly said that being born of water is being birthed from our mother into this world. The first person is born flesh. The second peson is born spiritual. The being born again is because of spiritual death/blindness. We all do this (die/blinded/hardened conscience) when we rebel against Gods love & truth. So? we must be born again. Born of the Spirit.

Born of the spirit isn't water baptism. It is God puting a Holy Seed in our souls that is our new born spiritman.

And Catholics & Mormons use John3. If you use John3:5, you should write it as it is written in the bible, including what is written about being born of water & the spirit. John3:6 is That who is born of the flesh is flesh (human) & that who is born of the Spirit is spirit (spiritual human).

FatherK, I have seen your long scriptural answers enouph times. I apreaciate the scriptures. And all scripture is good to read to learn more clearly. But as a Catholic you are a bit unbalanced in your understanding of it. Because of Catholic doctrines other than the Bible. I believe you are a born again Christian, but you are stubborn about this.

dwill4, Yes. But Jesus didn't need to be born of the Spirit. Because He was already spiritual. He never was dead/blinded spiritually, so didn't need to be born again. But He was also a human baptized in the Holy Spirit as an example for us to follow. The Spiritual birth for us who believe in Jesus is the Seed in us. We are made a new spiritman (body, soul & spirit). The Holy Spirit is with us as the Comforter & the Spirit of truth. But at moment of being born of the Spirit, this is eternal life within. Also. The early Church were at times filled with the Holy Spirit before they were water baptized. This is Jesus baptism of fire & the Holy Spirit. The fire is the result of the annointing oil(let your love light shine).

Also, John the Baptist didn't give Jesus the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is God. When we receive the spiritual birth, the Holy Spirit connects to us through our new born spiritman. God has promised to never leave or forsake us.

GOSPURSGO, We aren't born again when we rebel against Gods love & truth. We die/blinded/hardened conscience when we rebel. This is spiritual death. This is why we need then to be born again. Jesus said the children who loved him were an example of the Kingdom of God. Because they hadn't rebeled against God (like 1st Adam) yet. I believe that everyone born into this world has seen the true light. And have a God given conscience. And our Heavenly Angels guide us through our conscience (front of our forhead). And that is how we are children of God when born. And then when we disobey/rebell, get hardened conscience (then are disobedient children ruled by worldly spirits (our sins have separated us form God)). We must repent & be born again spiritual, by having our sins washed away by His redeeming blood. To be spiritual again, restored to God.

I am not trying to write we aren't to be baptized. We do this in obedience to Jesus Christ. This is representitive & an act of obedience. The baptism of repentance. Baptizing the death & resurrection of Christ. Old man dies, sins washed away by His redeeming blood, & raised up a new creation in Christ Jesus.

Carponone, You have to be born of water (born flesh) and need to be born of spirit (born spiritual). If you are never born into this world, how can you be born of His Spirit?

Born of Water isn't defined as water baptism. Born of Water is defined as being born flesh in verse John3:6.

Pastor Billy. Read John3:6. Billy Graham is a wonderful person who has preached the Rock foundation & countless have come to Christ because He was obedient to the Call of the Lord in his life. Also? Do a study of what Jewish people consider being born of water means in John3:5,6. John was Jewish.

Daver, Will you please read John3:6? It clearly writes that the 1st person is born flesh & the second person is born spiritual.
Being born of water = being born of flesh.
Yes we need to be born of water & born of the spirit to see the Kingdom of God. But being born of water isn't water baptism. Water baptism is the death & resurrection of Christ. We die to the flesh lust & raise up a new man in Christ. Many were filled with the Spirit before water baptism. They were already saved when they were water baptized. Born of the Spirit happens when one confesses with their mouth Jesus Christ their Lord & believe with their honest heart, unto God. The Holy Spirit seals us at this time. And we are children of God. Many people who didn't get water baptized are still born again because they confessed with their mouth 'Lord Jesus' & believed in their heart 'Resurrection'.

Sum people r born again when water baptized because they believe in their heart & confess with their mouth.

Acts 10:47. The people were already filled with the Holy Spirit. They were already born again. So? Can anyone forbid water baptism to these who have already received the Holy Ghost? They were water baptized after they were 'born again' They also were born again probably before they were baptized in the Spirit before they were baptized then in water.
Acts22:16. Being baptized represents Jesus atonement for our sins. Jesus said that He shed His blood for the remission of our sins. It is His blood that cleanses us. And also, after that, we are to renew our minds in Gods Word by 'washing in the Word'.

Thanks for the verses. Water baptism is important, but we are born again by an honest heart of faith in Jesus & then confessing with our mouth, Jesus Christ our Lord. The Holy Spirit washes us in the Word of God. This renews our mind. Because when we are first born of God, then we still have our old mind that needs to be renewed in Truth. Our sins are rooted in old lies.

SenetorJohnMclain, In the article, he writes that being born again doesn't happen instantaniously. I disagree with that. When we are born into this world, it happens in a few hours. So also when we are born of the Spirit, it happens as a spiritual birth. My Sister-n-law recently confessed Jesus Christ her Lord & Savior & I was witness to this on the phone. She said she wanted to be born again. God graced me with a dream of a spiritual birth. And the unbilical courd was broken. And God let me know this was my Sister-n-law. She is born again & the unbilical cord was cut. She needs to be nurtured then by the milk of the Word through the Holy Spirit, El Shaddai.

lutheren, Born of water means born of moms water bag. Not water means flesh. Born of water means born flesh. Every single person is born of water when they are born into this world!

FatherK, You are falsely accusing me of being arrogant. Really, God put pride under my feet. My Pastor has preached this & I have read John3 in the Spirit. And I trust the Spiritual revelation more than what man teaches me. So? My Pastor taught on this first. I asked God in prayer. And I know that none of you who call me stubborn, arrogant or evil, etc... have asked God in spirit & honestly from your heart (truth). You are trusting what your Pastor or Spiritual leader taught you without a confirmation in your spirit from God.

I am going to put this question up to vote.
But also ask a future question for 'Messianic Jews' who would probably know better what 'born of water' means.

Answer 1

"HEY GUYS!!!! My cult is better than your cult!!!!!!!!!"

Answer 2

Because being born again *is* being water baptized. The Bible makes this so abundantly clear, that I am continually amazed that people don't see it.

Verse 6 does *not* define water as flesh. There is nothing in the text to indicate that "flesh" is a definition for "water." The only way you can think that is if you bring that assumption with you into your reading of the text.

The book of John, unlike the other three gospels, is a literary work. As such, it follows thematic patterns rather than being a simple synopsis. It does not generally contain formal definitions, but you can make certain assumptions about its word usage across multiple, disperate events, that would not hold true in a synoptic work. When John uses the word "flesh," flesh is exactly what he means. When he uses the word "water," water is what he means.

Throughout the book of John, water is given sacramental significance. Its first mention is in water baptism. Its second is at the wedding in Cana, where we are given the powerful imagery of water which by God's miracle is no longer merely water. Then we are told that we must be born of water and spirit. Then Jesus tells the Samaritan woman of living water. Later we read of the Pool of Bethesda, at which the prophetic miracle of healing waters had occurred. And in the washing of the disciples' feet we have another image of water as a cleansing agent. Finally, when the Roman soldier pierces Jesus' side, blood and water flowed, and so we see the most vivid image yet of the sacraments, which are the whole theme of the story.

Sorry, but it's absurd to say that the one single mention of water in John 3:5 is refering something other than a sacramental use of water.

Answer 3

We could well ask, why are evangelicals and fundamentalists so stubborn about *their* definition of "born again" -- as if they alone hold the patent on it?

I am in complete agreement that John 3:5 speaks of being born of water and the Spirit. And this is exactly what happens during water baptism. (I don't see how one can insist that the "water" part means the amniotic fluid of our physical birth when, in several places, Scripture says otherwise!)

The problem is, you also extend "born again" to mean "saved", or the conversion experience of accepting Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. If you'll pardon the choice of words, that doesn't hold water. It may serve certain denominations well as a commonly understood term, but that doesn't mean it's correct.

Catholic theology on baptismal regeneration is not based upon a solitary Bible verse. If you are truly interested in knowing what is taught about the sacrament of baptism and its Scriptural basis, here is the appropriate section of the Catechism which explains it fully.

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c1a1.htm#1271

Answer 4

I am a Catholic and I am not stubborn to the idea. I agree with you that we are born again when we rebel against God's love and faith. Where I get annoyed is when people choose to leave the church because they need to be "born again" As if you cannot be a born again Catholic. Everyone is tempted by Satan and everyone acts in ways not worthy of Christ. Why should you the leave Catholic Church and branch off to an extension just to prove you are born again.

Answer 5

You're acting as if being stubborn is a bad thing. Well, sometimes it is, but not when you're on the same side as the Truth:

Born Again in Water Baptism
John 1:32 - when Jesus was baptized, He was baptized in the water and the Spirit, which descended upon Him in the form of a dove. The Holy Spirit and water are required for baptism. Also, Jesus’ baptism was not the Christian baptism He later instituted. Jesus’ baptism was instead a royal anointing of the Son of David (Jesus) conferred by a Levite (John the Baptist) to reveal Christ to Israel, as it was foreshadowed in 1 Kings 1:39 when the Son of David (Solomon) was anointed by the Levitical priest Zadok. See John 1:31; cf. Matt. 3:16; Mark 1:9; Luke 3:21.

John 3:3,5 - Jesus says, "Truly, truly, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." When Jesus said "water and the Spirit," He was referring to baptism (which requires the use of water, and the work of the Spirit).

John 3:22 - after teaching on baptism, John says Jesus and the disciples did what? They went into Judea where the disciples baptized. Jesus' teaching about being reborn by water and the Spirit is in the context of baptism.

John 4:1 - here is another reference to baptism which naturally flows from Jesus' baptismal teaching in John 3:3-5.

Acts 8:36 – the eunuch recognizes the necessity of water for his baptism. Water and baptism are never separated in the Scriptures.

Acts 10:47 - Peter says "can anyone forbid water for baptizing these people..?" The Bible always links water and baptism.

Acts 22:16 – Ananias tells Saul, “arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins.” The “washing away” refers to water baptism.

Titus 3:5-6 – Paul writes about the “washing of regeneration,” which is “poured out on us” in reference to water baptism. “Washing” (loutron) generally refers to a ritual washing with water.

Heb. 10:22 – the author is also writing about water baptism in this verse. “Having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.” Our bodies are washed with pure water in water baptism.

2 Kings 5:14 - Naaman dipped himself seven times in the Jordan, and his flesh was restored like that of a child. This foreshadows the regenerative function of baptism, by water and the Holy Spirit.

Isaiah 44:3 - the Lord pours out His water and His Spirit. Water and the Spirit are linked to baptism. The Bible never separates them.

Ezek. 36:25-27 - the Lord promises He will sprinkle us with water to cleanse us from sin and give us a new heart and spirit. Paul refers to this verse in Heb. 10:22. The teaching of Ezekiel foreshadows the salvific nature of Christian baptism instituted by Jesus and taught in John 3:5, Titus 3:5, 1 Peter 3:21 and Acts 22:16.

Answer 6

You answered part of your question already. In verse 5, Jesus says, "Truly, truly, say unto you, unless one is born of WATER AND THE SPIRIT, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. Emphasis mine. You (and many others like yourself), separate out the "water" and "Spirit". It just can't be done. That's like trying to separate "ham and cheese" from a ham and cheese sandwich and claiming they are talking about a ham sandwich only. The other important part of this passage starts in verse 22. "After this Jesus and his disciples went inot the land of Judea; there he remained with them and baptized. 23 John also was baptizing at Aenon near Salim, because there was much water there; and people were baptized."

Other passages: Mk 16:16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. Mt 28:19 go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.. [side note: notice the Trinitarian reference here?].

Answer 7

Pastor Billy says: you've missed the entire point all Catholics are born again, and they are born again the "bible way" that is why they quote you Jesus speaking to Nicodemus.

Many so-called Protestant Evangelicals are not born again the bible way as they have been taught a revision of the the terminology which seriously alters the belief. Catholics are redeemed in being born again, the fairly recent version you ascribe to probably the Billy Graham born againism of merely the last 50 years teaches a false idea of gainning final heavenly salvation at one moment of our life which was never the meaning Jesus transmitted to Nicodemus.


In addition tamil you've misrepresented the passage from John terribly, the water does not represent your first physical birth, the author of John uses text in Greek which explains the water and spirit to be one process not two. It is entirely about your Christian baptism. Jesus corrects Nicodemus the same way he would correct you

addendum: Tamil we aren't discussing how wonderful Billy Graham is or isn't we are discussing how orthodox is his version of born againism and I'll tell you clearly it's only been around for the last 50 years. It seems after examining your profile you enjoy the Billy Graham way so be it, but that is not the historical Christian teaching on being born again. Until you realize this and stop being stubborn I suggest you stop calling others who have greater knowledge than you stubborn.

"Quod ubique, quod semper, quod ab omnibus creditum est." way to go Father K in quoting St. Vincent to Tamil perhaps she'll study harder and from better sources which are not into revisionism of Christianity.

Answer 8

Being born of water and of spirit is necessary to follow Christ. Defining "Born of water" as regular child birth is your interpretation of the Bible and is not corroborated anywhere else. Jesus was Baptized and we should follow His example.

Being born again of the Spirit -- born of fire -- this is the higher state of being. But that does not negate the need for a water Baptism.


Anyway -- good Luck

D

Answer 9

Actually we do believe in being born again in many ways. Through water baptism, baptism of fire, and a mighty change of being. Here's a great talk given by one of our new apostles.

Edit: Tamil, I know you have studied the LDS church and feel that it is wrong, but if you want to know our thoughts on being born again I would highly recommend the article. It won't take long, and should clear up a few things.

Answer 10

I'm assuming you actually want an answer and not just an opportunity to state your own view. Often the problem with religion is that people want to talk way more than listen.

Think what you are saying: because these two groups of people don't follow MY understanding of certain biblical passages, they're stubborn. Or they don't acknowledge what 'Jesus clearly said.' Sorry but that's a very narrow view of the world and actually pretty arrogant.

Now, the short answer: either they are right and you are wrong (a distinct possibility), or you are right and they are wrong (what you're proposing), or they honestly interpret certain biblical passages differently just like you honestly interpret them differently from the way they do.

Answer 11

Jesus advised Nicodemus you will desire to be born lower back of water,and the Holy Spirit. it extremely is obviously baptism. We have faith that the form of baptism places an indelible mark on the soul. that it is the initiation into the Christian faith. a clean delivery,even for an infant into the recent Covenant of Jesus Christ. till you're baptized you at the instant are not yet a Christian,you're a neophyte,or a catachuminate. no depend what age baptism happens, it rather is an experience that modifications the soul.