Spiritual Darwinism?

Question

Many atheists invoke Darwinism as a scientific "proof" of the "God delusion". Many people who believe in God therefore dislike Darwin, and attack the theory of evolution. Why instead, as a believer, can't I see in Darwinism the magnificent METHOD by which the Creator proceeds? A God which uses natural selection just to select those species which it wants. A higher Intelligence that works by so tremendously complex means that our tiny human intelligence labels as "random" mutations without "direction". A divine architect who proceeds by variations that we interpret as "coding errors" in DNA replication, but later recognize as "fortuitous accidents". An Intelligence that causes mass extinctions to eliminate dinosaurs to give place to mammalians, i.e. the human being. An apparently random and nevertheless finalistic evolution, i.e. a "spiritual darwinism". This would de-construct completely the recent neo-atheist darwinian claims. God AND Darwin? Yes, thank you!

Acid Zebra: Yes, exactly. A God that uses natural selection must have some sort of different "morality" humans would like to impose on Him. Fortunately.... And there is no contradiction between random mutations and natural selection. These are basics of Darwinism.

????AM: My Bible doctrine? How do you know that I believe in everything the Bible says? Yes, I think that to adapt ones own concept of God to scientific evidence is the right thing to do. For instance to embrace panenthesim.

Peasoup: why not understanding the role randomness as the sign of a higher Intelligence at work that intervenes step by step?

Tardis girl: how do you know they have been always useless in the past? Can you give a rational and scientific explanation why "permutations guided by natural selection" can not be interpreted also as "some kind of organized scheme"? I can't see any....

Profoundtomatoe: thanks, I didn't know about Miller and Collins, will certainly read their books.

Everard G wrote: "A universe with a god would be completely different to one without." What God? Your God?

Answer 1

So,you agree the bible is a load then?

Answer 2

"Many atheists invoke Darwinism as a scientific "proof" of the "God delusion"."
Not being the sharpest tool in the set, I have no idea what you mean by that statement.
I'm an atheist because there is NO evidence to support the existence of an Invisible Sky Critter.
That lack of evidence is both Physical and Logical.

A universe with a god would be completely different to one without.

I don't know what Darwin-ism is. I thought he just wrote a book putting forth an Hypothesis that others found enough proof to give it the scientific 'Theory' status.

There is no 'proof' that god is a delusion just as there is no proof that FSM, PinkUnicorn, ToothFaerie, etc are delusions - there's just a big enough chance of it being a delusion for me to point and laugh at people who are sucked into the vortex of The Greatest Sting of all Time; people who talk to themselves but try to rationalise it by saying they’re talking to a ‘god’ who has never left evidence of ‘his’ existence anywhere.
‘His’ only proof of being is in a book filled with Bronze Aged MythSuperstition.

Epicurus: Either God wants to abolish evil, and cannot; or he can, but does not want to. If he wants to, but cannot, he is impotent. If he can, but does not want to, he is wicked. If God can abolish evil, and God really wants to do it, why is there evil in the world?

The whole existence of Evil tears at the credibility of Xianity.
I have seen it described very well as The Inconsistent Tetrad, and it is this:
God is omniscient (all knowing).
God is omnipotent (all powerful).
God is morally perfect.
Evil Exists.
Most theists would be quick to concede to each of these four premises, however, as the name implies, accepting all four leads to an inconsistency.
Here is the proof: If God is omniscient, and He is aware that evil exists, and If He was morally perfect, then He would certainly want to eliminate this evil. And if He is omnipotent, then … He has the power to eliminate evil … But evil exists.
Therefore, at least one of the premises has to be false.

If you are half way intelligent you will apply LogicReason to the god question.

Of course, wishful thinking is another thing which no amount of LogicReason can counter.

Having said all the above I chose to believe that in some way we are all joined at the WavePartical level - we are all energy without any real separation from any other 'thing' in the universe.
Weirdly wired, huh?
.

Answer 3

Well, if that is explanation enough for you to make sense of evolution then I say go with it. I,on the other hand have no problem seeing the way evolution works without a "god delusion", as you put it.
I think Mother Nature works just fine without "divine intervention",or without having to follow a creators process. There is no higher intelligence at work here. Its just how the cookie crumbles. Don't try fooling Mother Nature!!!!!..LOL!!!

Answer 4

Once again Darwinism is not cruel to individual animals and humans, indeed they cooperate to help others like them survive. Unlike free market theories - Spencerian economics which does take delight in the poor going to the wall, nature operates in competition but also in cooperation. The Catholic Church doesn't have an issue with evolution, it learnt it's lesson 600 years ago when it insisted that the earth went round the sun and was prepared to kill and torture to maintain that view. It has been proved wrong, wrong wrong - but like most people of blind faith doesn't apologise for past oppression. In 600 years time, providing that climate change hasn't killed us off we will be able to see what a primitive society existed in the USA at this time. People will marvel at how a society with advanced scientific knowledge and fantastic new images of the universe, could literally believe in sayings culled from an old tome of desert writings as a model for reality instead

Answer 5

I agree with you 100%. I believe in Science and everything it comes to light of knowledge through research, and I believe God is behind them all. God is so wonderfully magnificent and supreme that He created all things the way they are and gave men the inteligence and the tools to dig deeper and find out by themselves. That's God's will. However, for a Christian to admit that, he has also to admit that the Bible doesn't have all the answers, what I think (jn my humble point of view) a little bit too narrow-minded, and for Atheists as well, that would mean for them that they have to admit God's existence and they choose not to believe in anything beyound what their earthly eyes can't see, what I think (in my humble opinion) a sort of blindness and ignorance.

The day Science and Spirituallity (not religion) walk together, we will have a better world, for sure.

Good for you! You are thinking and questioning. The best way to get enlightenment is questioning.

Peace!

Answer 6

"A God which uses natural selection just to select those species which it wants. A higher Intelligence that works by so tremendously complex means that our tiny human intelligence labels as "random" mutations without "direction".

Do you think the useless hind legs in some species of whales are a product of an intelligent designer? How about a residual tail bone in humans? I'm glad that you accept evolution, but let's not confuse its permutations guided by natural selection for some kind of organized scheme. Mutations usually lead to the death of an organism -- it's not staged.

Edit: Those appendages were once useful in the past. What I mean is that through evolution, they are no longer useful, like the appendix in today's humans. So we have remnants of the evolutionary process that remain within us, despite having no further use -- if a god had guided the process, why would there be any need for their formation today? Also note that evolution requires billions of years and dead ends in terms of species. But looking at intelligent design within our own species, not even hundreds of years are necessary to see big changes. Like humans designing automobiles within the past century (compare an early twentieth century Ford to today's Porche), humans can work much faster by the same process, and their technological upgrades mimick the evolutionary process. Why would a god need billions of years to do something that would not even take so long in human hands? I guess that none of these views would eliminate the possibility of a god working behind the scenes in ways that the universe wouldn't reveal, but I find it very, very unlikely. There is simply no evidence that after all of those billions of years, a coherent intelligence was behind it all. Though to be honest, I admire the evolutionary process for it's complexity and blend of spontaneity and editing factor (mutations and natural selection). There is literally no end point in evolution -- humans are not the end of it, and we didn't have to exist in the first place. That kind of rules out the notion of a personal god, at least one that is interested in our species' affairs.

Also note that darwinism is not the same thing as evolution. Social dawinism was about applying the mechanisms of evolution (compete for survival) to human society, a very sad order. Evolution is the theory that you are referring to.

Answer 7

Well, since Darwin's theory is correct, and evolution has happened, and is happening today, accepting this is certainly the best approach for religious people to take.
Still, many legitimate criticisms remain. The acceptance of evolution would stand as only the most recent example of the practitioners of religion only hesitatingly accepting a scientific discovery which was already obvious to almost everyone but them.
Kenneth Miller (biologist) and Francis Collins (genome guy) are two prominent Christians who have this sort of view. As an atheist, I wonder why they continue believing in a God at all. I guess it does something for them.

PS. "an intelligence that pushes us to the ground, that we call gravity!" -- thanks Onion!

Answer 8

Oh, sure, there are lots of us who think that way.

What I sometimes wonder is whether God guided each step in the process, whether the system inherently had to follow a certain series of events given its beginning, or whether, once set in motion, things could have proceeded randomly with God waiting to see how they'd turn out.

Answer 9

I think you're mistakingly confusing Darwinism for evolution theory. The two aren't synonymous.

Answer 10

you can believe what you like.

the theory of evolution by natural selection does not make being an atheist necessary, but it does much to make it possible.

leave the cell door ajar and many will choose to remain inside.

Answer 11

As long as we accept the factual information that science discovers, we don't necessarily have to accept science's interpretations of that information. There are sometimes other explanations regarding the same evidence which are as robust and elegant. Life and human origins are two examples.