What is the basis for Christian Knowledge, the Catholic Church or the Bible?

Question

Many Catholics have chastised those like me and arrogantly corrected our 'lack of understanding'.

They say the Catholic Church is the Fountain of all Churches.
They say the Catholic Church gave us the Bible.
They call me a Protestant.
The call me a heretic and schismatic.

I ask them point blank questions from the Bible and they either ignore or slander. Very very few respond with meaningful posts and point to scripture. There are some that do, but very few.

The "Well duh, you should know this, the answer is obvious" atittude shines through in the vast majority of posts.

Upon what basis should I get it. If I know the Bible & I know history, then the Catholic Church has a profound credibility problem. When I point this out they try to lump me in with Protestants and their lack of credibility.

I am a non-catholic and non-protestant.

So as a person living in the 21st century, whom should I believe between the two choices of the Catholic Church or the Bible?

Some try to equate faith in Sola Scripture with an endorsement of slavery. Nice try.

The Word of God when it was finally completed was the embodiment of the Traditions of the Apostles in writing. These things were recorded under the influence of the Holy Spirit.

Does the Holy Spirit indwell only one man at the top of one organization, or does it indwell every single believer in Christ?

Answer 1

Catholics really don't like me. I like them, I just don't like their religion. The Bible should be the main focus of ANY Christian religion and tradition should come secondary. In the Catholic religion, tradition comes before the Word of God. That religion has done more damage to the name of God than any other religion on the face of the earth.

Since the Catholic religion states that they are Christian and their religion is based on the Bible, The Bible should come first, but it doesn't. I never understood why someone would claim to base their religion on a book and then deny the validity of that book. That just doesn't make sense.

EDIT: and here come the thumbs down... I can feel it!

Answer 2

You don't have to choose between the Bible and Catholicism because Catholic teaching is firmly rooted in and supported by Scripture. Try reading the Catechism of the Catholic Church and you will see thousands of biblical references supporting Catholic doctrine.

As for whether or not you are a protestant, a protestant is a non-Catholic Christian who protests the authority of the Bishop of Rome (the pope). You are not Catholic and you protest the authority of the Pope, so that makes you a protestant. I'm sorry if you find this hard to swallow, but that's really the only definition there is for "protestant" and you fit it to a Tee.

I'm not sure why you believe the Catholic Church has a credibility problem -- I've seen some of your previous posts and many of them contain gross misrepresentations of Catholic theology. Might I suggest you actually READ the Catechism of the Catholic Church, or it's shorter, Q&A version, the Compendium of the Catechism, to discover what Catholics *actually* believe and are taught to believe. Then you can formulate your arguments against the Catholic Church based on authentic Catholic theology.

I apologize that some of my Catholic brethren are so harsh with you. It does get a little tiresome for us to be constantly accused of things that are not true. You sometimes make statements that indicate you believe you know what's going on in our hearts better than we do -- we look upon that as you declaring yourself to be omnicient and equal to God, and that's pretty much sacrilege from our understanding.

Let us search the Scriptures together and strive for peace.

Answer 3

If you knew your history like you say you do, then you’d know the Church came before the bible, and not the other way around. This is critically important because how does one account for that period of history when there was no New Testament? How did the faithful learn about God? Who or what did they go to in case of a dispute? Again and again I’ve asked these questions to people like you and never have I gotten a credible response. Read your history on the bible’s origins.

Answer 4

The basis of christian knowledge was mainly by preaching and tradition.The Apostles never circulated one volume of the Bible,but they went forth and preached everywhere,while the Lord worked with them(Mark 16:20).

Christ bade His Apostles to teach all men "to observe all command you" (Matt. 28:20),not necessarily make nations read a book ?

If the Bible was the basis of christian knowledge and the sole guide to salvation the primitive christians would have been at a disadvantage,for the books were gathered after the Church was established;even when the parts were put together there were very few manuscript copies till the invention of printing in the fifteenth century,also it would be little help to those unable to read.

God did not to intend Holy Scripture to be the rule of faith independently of a living Voice(Church).

Even under the Old Law the jews,in spite of their great veneration for Scripture,never dreamed to the private appeal of the Word Of God.

When a religious dispute arose,it was decided by the High Priest and Council,their decision was be obeyed under penalty of death.The jews did not appeal to the dead letter of the law,but to the living voice of the tribunal that God had established.

Christ - "The Scribes and Pharisees have sat on the chair of Moses.All things,therefore,that they command you,observe and do" (Matt. 23:2-3).

St Paul bade the Thessalonians: "Hold the teachings that you have learned,whether by word(oral) or letter of ours" (2 Thess 2:15).
If the Church teaches a doctrine not in Holy Scripture it would be found in tradition and therefore traceable to the Apostles.

Many things were not written down,but passed down through teaching( tradition).

God bless,

JMJ

Answer 5

No matter what religion we are borned into, or are in for whatever reason,
study the bible with the intent to get it right as if God and Christ were the teachers and you are the student and you have the greates desire to get it right for their sake. Have eyes that can see and ears that can hear as Jesus
requested.
Matt.13:15-18; 37-29; If any of our offspring will listen, they are in the time of the end and should show all the respect in the world for the word of God, in the world 396 years at 2007 C. E.

Answer 6

Our Lord founded the Catholic Church and gave her the deposit of Faith. He sent her the Holy Ghost to guide her and prevent her from failing in her duty to teach His Faith and provide His Sacraments. Early Church bishops wrote the New Testament, most of it (all but the gospels and St. John's Apocalypse) as letters when they were unable to teach in person (which was their preferred means of teaching).

A heretic (protestants included) is a person who denies any doctrine (that given us by Christ in the deposit of Faith). Many try to claim Scripture supports their claims by twisted it around. Perhaps they will claim the Holy Ghost is guiding them in understanding it, but the fact is that ALL protestants "understand" the Bible differently. If the Holy Ghost was guiding them, there would be no such variation.

On the other hand, Catholics have all believe the same doctrines for nearly 2000 years. This alone proves the authenticity of Catholicism, as any human institution would have drifted or changed.

Schismatics are those who accept the full deposit of Faith, but refuse to be in the company of others who do. The present-day example of this is the Society of St. Pius V who generally will turn away anyone who accepts the validity of Bishop Thuc's consecrations.

Heretics place themselves outside of Christ's Church by denying what He has revealed about Himself (the Truth). Schismatics do so by intentionally being disunited. Catholics are inherently united in Faith.

Also keep in mind that the Bible was written by the Church, and its authority comes from that fact. If it were not written by the Church, it would not be inspired by God and thus have no authority. Yes, the Bible is the inspired Word of God, but God used the Church as his tool to write it. This, plus the fact that Catholic teaching has never changed even over 2000 years, means the Bible is NOT at odds with the Church.

Answer 7

Please go with the Bible, but then you have to make a choice. It is clear that Christ made it known that a person must do certain things to be brought into his saving power. Paul discusses this at length. These certain things can be called by diferent names, sacraments or ordinances or traditional behaviors. Some are acts done ceremonally, others are daily things one does in secret moments. The problem is that the ceremonial ordinaces are done by an organization - ergo why the Catholic church was first organized. As you are selecting to follow the Bible, which you believe instructs you to go against the organized Catholic Church (as you believe the church as an organization does not teach the teneants correctly as noted in the Bible text - which by the way I agree with you) one must then find an organization which professes to be following the Bible tenants which also performs these ordinances. Then you have to face the question - does your new found organization have the authority or power to make these ordinances effective not only in this life, but in the eternal realms. As Christ said to Peter, I give you the keys to bind on earth that which is bound in heaven. Authority becomes important. If the authority of you new found church is based merely on some men getting together to start the church, maybe the ordinaces will not be binding in the eternal realm. The Catholics claime their authority from Christ as they claim it came to them from the Apostles who got it from Christ. Paul notes there will come a day when there will need to be a restoration of all things. So this must mean there needs to be a renewal of this authority from God. So look for a church which claims to perform ordinances based on restored authority. And this organization must also teach the Bible as the basis for their practices. It is not enough to say I follow the Bible. One has to also cleave to other people who want to follow the Bible. Christ revealed this group of people was His Church. I hope you find it, I have. Good Luck

Answer 8

The Bible in the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Tradition in the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church

You are "Neo Baptistic" Protestant,don't kid yourself.

The Bible came fron Mosaic and Apostolic Tradition and that tradition(Paradosis) and the Catholic Church are the context of real Bible interpretation

Answer 9

1) Jesus. Not the Roman Catholic Church (RCC). Not the bible. Jesus. Christianity was taught long before there was such a thing as a bible, and taught far and wide without any such advantageous tool.

2) To claim that the RCC is "the fountain of all churches" is only slightly arrogant. Jesus is, of course, the fountain of all churches. Many churches splintered from the pre-RCC before the RCC (as we know it) actually came into being. It is better to say that the pre-RCC is the (philosophical) successor of the Apostolic Church, and the RCC is one of many sects which evolved from this church.

3) Again, the pre-RCC (predecessor of all the Eastern Orthodox Churches, as well as some others, and the RCC) is responsible for compiling and producing the bible. The contents might more appropriately be attributed to the Eastern churches, though the language was Latin and performed primarily by a Western scholar.

4) Hmmm... Protestant, heretic *and* schismatic. You get around!

5) As you have ascertained, most RCs are educated in the doctrine of the church, not the bible. Note that, with *very* few exceptions, the doctrines of the church *are* supported by the bible. A very few are not directly supported by scripture. A *very* very few are contrary to scripture (good luck finding one).

6) If you can't dazzle them with your brilliance...

7) "If I know the Bible & I know history, then the Catholic Church has a profound credibility problem."
? Neither of these bear on the credibility of the RCC. These have bearing on the credibility of specific leaders within the RCC (historically), but not the RCC as a whole or the RCC today.

8) RCs see things pretty much as "you're either for us or agin' us". Like the Jews vs. Gentiles, RCs (generally) consider anyone not RC to be Protestant. Indeed, this broad meaning of Protestant has taken root in our language. Under the heading "People", check out "Religion"
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/us.html
Common use in our language of the word "Protestant" has come to mean any Christian sect not RC (Orthodox Churches are also frequently excluded from Protestant).

The final question:

Don't discount the doctrine of the RCC simply because it does not agree with *your* interpretation of the bible. The RCC doctrine is backed up by centuries of the most, and best-educated, apologeticists of the last several centuries. It is very coherent (lacking in contradiction). It is also almost entirely supported by scripture. You should definitely read through the entire RC Catechism. It's an eye-opener. (Of course, you should have read the bible first, IMHO). The RCC claims that the bible contains no doctrinal contradiction - and they also claim that they observe the strictures that lie within. Note that the RCC also claims that they have the authority to go *beyond* what is in scripture - in other words, to interpret and expand on what lies therein. Thus, they consider themselves bound by scripture, but not *only* by scripture, but also by revelation and conclusions reached through study with the support of the Holy Spirit.

Thus, my final answer: you should believe the bible 1st, but research any seeming disagreement between the bible and RC doctrine. I think you will be very hard-put to find a teaching that is *clearly* contrary to scripture. Indeed, I think you will find it difficult to find any even contrary to scripture by implication.

Jim, former RC, still Christian, http://www.life-after-harry-potter.com

Answer 10

I think you need to know something very important. That is that there are many bibles. Some do not have all the books in them, they have left out wisdom and other books within those bibles. King James does, and there are others. Also, a lot of people do not even know about everything that is in the bible and how to translate it. It was transcribed from another language to the English one. You are right about a lot of people not knowing very much about the bible and quoting it. Then again, how are the children and others suppose to learn about it or want to learn about it when the schools do not allow it in their schools, and others think we should be open to other religions coming into our country, but we cannot even speak of the Lord in some schools, lots of them, we cannot wear crosses etc. and yet if another religion is put down, our children are scorned, label and thrown out of class or school? HM mm, some thing's wrong with the picture... ?

Answer 11

The bible cannot be right according to itself. In Genesis 11, it reads that god came down and confused the WORD. The Tower of Babel was in the generation just following the FLOOD, so only one people, one language/WORD.

In an OT prophesy, it also says that god will not restore the WORD until the 'Day of Judgement'.
Zeph 3:9 For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the LORD, to serve him with one consent."

Besides its not like the heavens opened one day and the bible came down floating on the wings of a dove, or something like that. 363CE Council of Laodicea names 26 New Testament books as "inspired word of God"; Book of Revelation is excluded. Basically, they just approve Eusebius 'approved reading list'; Eusebius, that great Church propagandist and self-confessed “liar-for-god”.

Secondly, it cannot be the Catholic Church, since that would defy the teaching of 'Jesus'. Mat 7:16-20 a good tree cannot bear evil fruit, a tree that bears evil fruit is to be cut down and burnt. The Catholic Church as been responsible for too many ickies throughout history from out right killing people, to the destruction of both civilization and knowledge, to the cover up of priestly child molestion.

Proverbs 4:17-19 they eat the bread of wickedness and drink the wine of violence. The path of the righteous is like the first gleam of dawn, shining ever brighter till the full light of day. But the way of the wicked is like deep darkness; they do not know what makes them stumble.

then go with option #3....yourself.

EXO 4:11 The LORD said to him, "Who gave man his mouth? Who makes him deaf or mute? Who gives him sight or makes him blind? Is it not I, the LORD ?

Ecc 8:17 then I saw all that God has done. No one can comprehend what goes on under the sun. Despite all his efforts to search it out, man cannot discover its meaning. Even if a wise man claims he knows, he cannot really comprehend it.