The Christian god is defined as a personal being who knows everything. According to Christians, personal beings have free will. In order to have free will, you must have more than one option, each of which is avoidable. This means that before you make a choice, there must be a state of uncertainty during a period of potential: you cannot know the future. Even if you think you can predict your decision, if you claim to have free will, you must admit the potential (if not the desire) to change your mind before the decision is final. A being who knows everything can have no "state of uncertainty." It knows its choices in advance. A being that knows its choices in advance has no potential to avoid its choices, and therefore lacks free will. Since a being that lacks free will is not a personal being, a personal being who knows everything cannot exist. Therefore, the Christian god does not exist.
If I'm wrong, can you kindly tell me where I'm wrong?
2007-11-15 13:53:54 · 26 answers · asked by I'm an Atheist 3 in Society & Culture ➔ Religion & Spirituality
I see no flaw there.
Or any proof that there is a Jesus.
Even though I'm sure that there are some really-religious people who would read this and throw a hissy fit.
And will probably thumb me down.
0h n0!11one
2007-11-15 13:56:33 · answer #1 · answered by adilicious 4 · 4⤊ 7⤋
I believe the point where you're wrong is when you say the Christian God is a "personal being." I'm not quite sure what you mean by that, but God is not a human being and can't be compared to humans with any regard to state of mind or ability to know the future. God knows everything, including the future. It is humans that have free will. If I am misunderstanding what you mean by "personal being" my answer may not be very helpful, but that seems to be where you're confused.
2007-11-15 21:59:13 · answer #2 · answered by Grace1228 3 · 2⤊ 1⤋
You assume that God was forced by His own nature to do the things He has done. It was His decision to create or not create. It was His decision to create robotic reaction or free will in His creation. It was His choice how man should appear. It is His choice to extend grace or withhold it. It is up to Him how long the physical world will remain in existence. I see lots of choices here, and this list is nowhere near exhaustive.
You play on words to say the exercise of a choice in light of foreknowledge of that choice is lack of real choice. You inappropriately apply foreknowledge as a straight jacket. What good would it possibly be to have that knowledge if it were false? Have you never had a tire going down on your automobile and known it was going to be very hard to steer? It was not the foreknowledge that made it so, but the tire going flat. How magnificent we are that we can do things God can not!!!!?
You can not set the definition of a thing that does not exist as evidence of its non-existence. In that case the very evidence you cite would not exist. The very best you can hope to establish by your arguement is that the Christian understanding of God is incomplete. Coming from one who denies that existence is an admission of ignorance on the subject. Who can take the argument seriously?
2007-11-15 22:17:27 · answer #3 · answered by sympleesymple 5 · 0⤊ 1⤋
Wow! A whole lot of something there to disprove God!
We have free will to decide what we want to believe. Yes, it comes at a time of uncertainty, but for me, as many when I hit a low spot in life. Was there something better to give me peace from what I was living? Yes. God. Can I change my mind at any time. Yes. It is our free will as humans. Where do you bring God into this part of it? Why can't God have free will? Your statements are a bunch of negatives trying to cancel out God's positives and it won't work. God is real. I have felt Him in my life for years. I have no doubts as to His power. Maybe if you are this confused, you could always try taking it to Him and asking Him for wisdom to understand. Unless you open yourself to Him, you will not have His knowledge. Good luck in your searching for the truth.
2007-11-15 22:09:41 · answer #4 · answered by dawnUSA 5 · 0⤊ 0⤋
This is gonna sound like a cop out, but its not. I don't consider myself religious at all, just logical.
You're applying your concept of logic on a being that may not even share your same physical laws. The supposition that God must follow your same logic flow is flawed.
That's like applying a man's view of the world to a woman - they think differently, men and women - that's why they're both so surprised when the other doesn't act as expected.
2007-11-15 22:00:03 · answer #5 · answered by Mickey P 4 · 1⤊ 1⤋
This is a well-crafted example of circular reasoning.
Circular reasoning is one example of an error in logic.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_constitutes_an_error_in_logic
I salute you for trying though.
Carl Sagan has a baloney detection kit over at:
http://users.tpg.com.au/users/tps-seti/baloney.html
and then there are the 50 proofs of the non-existence of a deity over at:
http://www.godisimaginary.com/
which I have found to be helpful.
Wikipedia has a list of cognitive biases which I think of as the anthithesis to the formation of a logical and sound argument.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases
[waving hello atheist as I head out the door to walk with the dog]
2007-11-15 22:10:35 · answer #6 · answered by fluffy not stuffy 2 · 0⤊ 0⤋
why would you have to have the "state of uncertainty?" plenty of choices are made knowing what the outcome will be. like if someone offers you a choice of two different candy bars that you can see,you have a choice that you can see the outcome to either decision. that doesnt mean that person took away your free will.
2007-11-15 22:00:07 · answer #7 · answered by horrible_hobbits 3 · 1⤊ 1⤋
I know that if you hold your hand over a fire it will be burnt. If you have free will..you can hold your hand over the fire..I know the outcome..I have no state of uncertainty. I am outside of your actions, as God is out side of time and space. You are the only one with the decision..
2007-11-15 21:59:10 · answer #8 · answered by PROBLEM 7 · 2⤊ 1⤋
Your circular logic did not make the full circle.
You simply left out many of the attributes of God.
You cannot measure God. It is that simple.
2007-11-15 22:04:57 · answer #9 · answered by bobalo9 4 · 2⤊ 1⤋
I see your logic, i'm not a Christian but i never heard of God being a 'personal' being, but if this is true, your logic is sound
2007-11-15 22:01:58 · answer #10 · answered by Anonymous · 1⤊ 2⤋
Your error is in assigning human logic to an omnipotent being. God is not a man. He is not bound by human logic.
2007-11-15 22:02:26 · answer #11 · answered by sdb deacon 6 · 3⤊ 2⤋