General Judaism question.?

Question

I asked a question about the specifics of Messianic Judaism the other day and received alot of posts from Jews who were upset about this concept because it wasnt true Judaism. My question is, do Jews within their own groups (like Christianity) have a war of words as far as doctrine goes? Hasidic Jews, Reformed Jews, Orthodox Jews, etc?

Answer 1

Ok- within Orthodox Judaism the different sects argue over interpretations of specific things, but everybody sees everybody else as Jewish. Contrary to what sme other posters have said, converts are NOT looked down on and we are specifically commanded to treat them well.

However, between Orthodox and the liberal movements (Conservative, Masorti, Reform, Reconstructionist, progressive) there is a lot of ill will since Orthodox does not accept their conversions and thus state that many within the liberal movements are not Jewish and thus cannot marry Orthodox Jews without converting. This comes about because Orthodox Judaism, regardless of sect, accepts the entire Torah, Talmud and later Rabbinical rulings (the differences arise between groups over which interpretations are primary and thus the normative law), whereas the liberal movements do not follow this line- from Conservative not folloeing the whole Talmud or the Rabbinical rulings, to Reconstructionist that say one does not even have to believe in God and that the Torah etc are nothing more than historucal documents we can look at for an understanding of what morality used to be- but that it is always evolving.

There is one thign that evrey Jewish movement does agree on though, that Messianic Judaism, Jews for Jesus, completed Jews, Hebrew Christians, Nazarene Christians etc are all Christian sects and have nothing to do with Judaism.

Note: A correction to the person who stated that Orthodox Judaism started after reform. It didn't. there is no actual thing as Orthodox Judaism but was a defayult applied to the existing Jewish religion when Reform started. Orthodox simply means "traditional' and encompasses all the traditionally observant Jews, be they sephardi, Ashkenazi, Hareid, Chassidic, Mitnagdim, Chabad or whatever. Orthodox Judaism does not have a central body or decision making committee - rather each group within it follows the halachic ruling of their own poskin (Rabbinical decisors) and then there are a few that are authoritative enough to be followe dby all such as HaRav Moshe Feinstein, HaRav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach, HaRav Eliashav, HaRav Ovadia Yosef, the Chifetz Chain, the Chazon Ish etc.

Answer 2

War of words is a bit strong but there is alot of debate both within and between denominations. Basically the largest denomination of Judaism today is the Reform movement which essentially started in Europe in the early 18th century. The Orthodox movement was formed basically as a need to return to fundamental Jewish traditions. The Conservative movement came later basically as a third alternative feeling that the Orthodox were too rigid and the Reform movement was too liberal. This is somewhat of an oversimplification but Judaism probably needs all three. We needed the modernization of the Reform movement to keep Judaism relevant to our lives and we definitely need the Orthodox to keep alive our connection to our basic traditions. But as you said, the debates as what is the proper role of our religion in our daily lives, over what is allowed and what shouldn't be, can become heated.

However there is no debate over the status of "Messianic Judaism". It is not Judaism. Period. Its Christian, specifically Southern Baptist. We dont get upset because it isnt "true" Judaism, we get upset because it is Christianity trying to masquerade as Judaism in order to get Jewish men and women more comfortable about converting. How would you feel if there was an organization called "Christian Witches" and taught that Jesus was not divine, that you did not have to accept him as your savior and you could still go to heaven, and then called themselves "Completed Christians"?

Oh one more thought. Orthodox Jews do not look down on converts, but some orthodox rabbi's may not accept another denominations proccess of conversion.

Answer 3

Branches of Judaism differ in practices, not beliefs. Just as in all families, we don't all agree with each other and sometimes don't even like each other, but we all come together in times of crisis.

One thing we can all agree on is that one cannot become a member of our family without our approval. Southern Baptists cannot become Jews simply by calling themselves Messianic "Jews." There is a specified conversion process in all branches of Judaism which cannot be sidestepped.

Perhaps Southern Baptists would like to call themselves "Citizens of China." That doesn't make them citizens of China. Canadians could easily call themselves U.S. citizens, but that doesn't make them U.S. citizens.

I suspect the reason Messianic Jews consider themselves Jews is because they also think that Judaism is a race which it most definitely is NOT. The designation of a Jewish race originated with Roman Catholics during the 15th and 16th centuries when Jews (Conversos) converted to Christianity in order to avoid torture and death. After their conversion, the Church still didn't accept them as "real" Christians and continued to persecute and expel any "Christian" with Jewish blood in their ancestry (grandparents, Ggrandparents, GGgrandparents, etc.).

Why is it necessary for Messianic "Jews" to drop all Christian references to themselves? Can it be anything other than deceit?
.

Answer 4

Yes, all these different sects have very different ideas of how best express their Jewish faith, just as Methodists, Baptists, Espicopalians, Adventists, etc, all have different ideas of how best express their Christian faith.

However, since Judaism isn't a missionary religion, and doesn't have a strong dogma of damnation and hell, it generally lacks that virulent "war of words" between sects that can be witnessed between some Christian or Islamic sects.

So although every Jew I've ever met scoffs at Messianic Judaism as being not real Judaism, they tend to be pretty laidback about the differences between their own sects.

Answer 5

About a week ago I heard a Hasidic rabbi questioned about some of the other sects. His answer was that yes they are Jewish, but what they practice isn't real Judaism.( His opinion, not mine) However most Messianics I cross paths with never were Jewish to start with. They were not born Jewish nor did they convert. While its possible for someone born Jewish to become "Messianic" the majority don't seem to fall in this catagory.

Answer 6

IMHO, the followers are, at desirable, unaware and at worst, deceitful. If people opt for to stay with Jesus, then effective. large. yet to call themselves JEWS ability that they the two have not have been given any thought of what Judaism believes or are mendacity. Judaism has set forth fairly some prophecies that have yet to be met (as as a results of the Mark S. for the record): * The Sanhedrin would be re-conventional (Isaiah a million:26) * as quickly as he's King, leaders of alternative countries will seem to him for coaching. (Isaiah 2:4) * the entire worldwide will worship the only God of Israel (Isaiah 2:17) * he would be descended from King David (Isaiah 11:a million) by ability of King Solomon (a million Chron. 22:8-10) * The Moshiach would be a guy of this worldwide, an observant Jew with "worry of God" (Isaiah 11:2) *****In different words - this could all be achieved in a human lifetime***** * Evil and tyranny is merely not waiting to stand in the previous his management (Isaiah 11:4) * information of God will fill the worldwide (Isaiah 11:9) * he will contain and entice people from all cultures and countries (Isaiah 11:10) * All Israelites would be back to their place of beginning (Isaiah 11:12) * dying would be swallowed up consistently (Isaiah 25:8) * there'll be not greater starvation or ailment, and dying will end (Isaiah 25:8) * all the ineffective will upward thrust back (Isaiah 26:19) * The Jewish people will adventure eternal excitement and gladness (Isaiah fifty one:11) * he would be a messenger of peace (Isaiah fifty two:7) * countries will finally end up recognizing the wrongs they did to Israel (Isaiah fifty two:13-fifty 3:5) * The peoples of the worldwide will turn to the Jews for non secular coaching (Zechariah 8:23) * The ruined cities of Israel would be restored (Ezekiel sixteen:fifty 5) * weapons of conflict would be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9) * The Temple would be rebuilt (Ezekiel 40) resuming most of the suspended mitzvot * he will then desirable the entire worldwide to serve God at the same time (Zephaniah 3:9) * Jews will know the Torah devoid of learn (Jeremiah 31:33) * he will provide you all the needs of your coronary heart (Psalms 37:4) * he will take the barren land and make it important and fruitful (Isaiah fifty one:3, Amos 9:13-15, Ezekiel 36:29-30, Isaiah 11:6-9). that's like my announcing - i'm a Christian, yet refuse to worship Jesus. does not that be slightly dumb? you desire to call your self (popular - i'm not directing this at you, Asker) Messianic - have at it. do exactly not call your self Jewish as properly!

Answer 7

"Messianic Judaism" is not a construct of any schism WITHIN Judaism.

The various branches of Judaism could perhaps be more construed that way.

Yet, among the various branches of Judaism, the differences are not so much over doctrine/dogma as to what significance certain Torah rituals or customs or other customs which arose in Israel and the Diaspora, are important to maintain. There are some elements of doctrine that are different, but it isn't over the nature of God or what the Torah reads as is the case with many Christian divisions.

If you compare the statements of beliefs of all Jewish branches, and then compare the statements of beliefs of the " messianic Jewish" with Southern Baptist or other protestant beliefs, YOU can judge for yourself.

Most importantly, the "Messiniac" movement was founded, funded and supported entirely by Christian organizations and NO Jewish organization on the planet funds it.

There are Orthodox Jews who see Reform Judaism in a harmful light because they believe that because Reform does not stress observance of kashrut and other rituals, it is a way to diminish Judaism.

So far, from my Reform Jewish perspetive...What's and Lady Suri have given the most accurate answers! Allonyoa is good, too.
I want to repeat and stress two things to dispel falsehoods that I see continually repeated..

"Messianic Judaism" Is IN NO WAY a schism WITHIN Judaism. It is something EVERY branch of Judaism is in agreement about and it did NOT originate from WITHIN Judaism at all. It cannot be compared to the split within the church as some churches are actually TEACHING local congregations in my community! That is an egregious lie if someone tells you it is a split within Judaism. It is viewed by ALL branches of Judaism as a conversion campaign targeting Judaism, period. Re-read Lady Suri's posting of the position statements that all branches agree with.

Orthodox Jews do NOT " Look down" on converts. They only accept as converts to Judaism, people who have gone through Orthodox conversions. I hope that clarifies it.

In traditional Judaism, one born to a Jewish mother, even if the father is not Jewish, is considered born Jewish and does not require conversion. Jewishness is conferred through matrileneal descent, only. Reform Judaism will accept as Jewish a child of a Jewish father and non Jewish mother who is RAISED Jewish ONLY..not raised in some kind of mish/mash of "half Jewish- half something else". Orthodox does not recognize a person raised only Jewish from a Jewish father/Gentile mother unless they go through a formal Orthodox conversion. This can create a source of confusion and heated debate within Judaism.

Yet, we're all family
Am Yisrael Chai! :)


EDIT: and it is not REFORMED, but REFORM Judaism.

I am Reform, but if most Christians who read questions often posted here about Judaism may note..Reform, Conservative and Orthodox are almost always posting in agreement on issues about Jewish history, Tanakh and most often over other aspects of Jewish dogma. It is primarily over importance of particular observances that we disagree most.

I do believe a "war" of words is a bit harsh, but we can certainly argue and hairsplit points to death!

Shalom :)
I hope this helps!
Shalom

Answer 8

A lot of Orthodox Jews look down on converts to Judaism, or think that Reform Jews aren't religious enough. A lot of Reform Jews think that Orthodox Jews aren't modern enough and take things too seriously.

Answer 9

Well here is the problem with Messianicism.

It is not a sect of Judaism--so some Jews may have qualms about what is and is not the 'right' Judaism (like someone else said, for example, Orthodox Jews tend to think Reform Jews aren't observant enough and Reform Jews tend to think Orthodox Jew aren't modern enough) but on this topic ALL Jews --Reform, Conservative, Orthodox, Chassidic, Humanistic, Reconstructionist, and any other one you can think of--agree: Messianic "Jews" are NOT Jews.

Messianic "Judaism" is a Xian movement FOUNDED by a Baptist minister! It is a new way for Xians to trick Jews who haven't had a good Jewish education into converting, and that is their whole aim.

CHIEF Ashkenazi and CHIEF Sephardi Rabbis of Israel

"There are Christian groups that call themselves "Messianic Jews" whose
faith is totally alien to the Jewish faith, and members of these groups who
were born to Jewish parents have a status of apostates who removed
themselves from the Jewish Nation."

-Official proclamation of the Chief Rabbinate of Israel, 1998.

Rabbi Y. Eliezer Danzinger of Tzefat, Israel (Chabad)

"Messianic Judaism is both a logical and theological absurdity. It's
perverse goal is to seduce uneducated Jews away from their heritage and
people, without the ensnared realizing the enormity of their betrayal."

"Although Jews who subscribe to such heresy are clearly apostates--and as
such, forfeit all rights as Jews, including the right of being buried in a
Jewish cemetery--the gates of repentance are open to them."

Hebrew Union College / Jewish Institute of Religion (Reform)

....being Jewish and accepting Christ is entirely incompatible. In the Winter
1996 issue of Reform Judaism, Mark Washofsky, called Messianic Jews
"apostates." "We see Messianic Jews as dishonest, deceptive and ultimately
dangerous to our existence as a religious community."

Central Conference of American Rabbis (Reform)

For us in the Jewish community anyone who claims that Jesus is their savior
is no longer a Jew and is an apostate. Through that belief she has placed
herself outside the Jewish community. Whether she cares to define herself as
a Christian or as a "fulfilled Jew," "Messianic Jew," or any other
designation is irrelevant; to us she is clearly a Christian. We should,
therefore, consider a "completed Jew" [Messianic Jew] as an apostate.

....they should be seen as outsiders who have placed themselves outside the
Jewish community. This should be made very clear to them and to the Jewish
and general community, especially as many such individuals are active
proselytizers. Such individuals should not be accorded membership in the
congregation or treated in any way which makes them appear as if they were
affiliated with the Jewish community, for that poses a clear danger to the
Jewish community and also to its relationships with the general community.

We certainly do not want these individuals to speak for Judaism in any
public forum. In conclusion, we should make the distinction between
ourselves and these individuals very clear to them, to the Jewish community
and to the general community around us.

-proclamation September 1983.

AND WE DO NOT LOOK DOWN ON CONVERTS I do not type in caps to yell, only to try to get attention to this statement after all those quotes. A Jew who converts is just as Jewish as one who was born that way.

Peace

Answer 10

Of course

Even different Hasidic and Orthodox groups squabble between each other.

It is not something that we are proud of, but unfortunately it is a fact of life.