question for atheists?

Question

Ethics class is boring...no one asks tough questions or answers if one is proposed. Please help me understand...

If you are living without the thought of eternal damnation or reward of various afterlife scenarios, why do you follow laws (which all have evolved from one religion or another)?

What is your guiding force for ethical behaviour? If there are no eternal consequences, what keeps you from going Ted Bundy or Bonnie and Clyde?

Religions preach self sacrifice for the benefit of others, if you are not religious why do you follow religion based ethics, values, and laws?

Rev Soleil, use use the word "evil", in effect admitting that you believe in higher powers. Sorry you only believe in one side.

Lion of Judah, very nice. Some individuals seem very angry over a simple question. So far you have the best ideas.

CatherineE, I think a lot of individuals would. Look at what happened after Katrina. Greed and need are very close together...the only difference in them is "opportunity".

Peter, prove me wrong! The oldest know texts and laws are based upon some form of religious thought.

To everyone else that had some form of personal ethics as a guiding force, try reading CS Lewis "Mere Christianity" for discussion on ethical perspectives and what forces drive them. Personal ethics are not an acceptable answer.

The point was regarding the athiest reasoning for following religious based laws and ethical standards. It is tough to answer in a way that does not link the athiest to religion, but easy to attack me with retoric. Why be lazy?

Answer 1

Don't assume you know everything or you'll never know anything.

Here are some thoughts on your questions:
1a. If people don't believe in eternal damnation they follow laws because of self preservation. Even if you don't believe you'll be punished for murder in the afterlife, you're pretty damn sure that you'll be thrown in jail for all of this life. And when this is all you think you get, that's a pretty big motivator.

1b. I just thought I'd like to point out that 'laws have all evolved from one religion or another' because religions were eventually created to structure society so it wouldn't tear itself apart. There IS a 'good and evil' and I can define it in more factual terms that you may or may not find interesting.

I'll give it a shot, in case you want to see my try:
Good - something is good when it is a cumulative action. For example, if ten people get together and build a community center, then whenever any of them work at it, everyone benefits.

Evil - something is evil when it is exclusive action. For example, when a dictator comes to power he will consolidate as much power as he can for himself. When he shares that power, he becomes less powerful. And, when he destroys any opposition he becomes more powerful. Therefore, only he benefits through these actions, while everyone else suffers.

moving on...

2. My guiding force for ethical behaviour comes from two things. Firstly, my compassion for people -- I genuinely care about the people I know and don't know because I find the world fantastically interesting, and people even moreso because they are just as confused as I am in this world so we share something in common. Plus, people can do amazing things, like write great novels or create music which I enjoy.

The other part to my ethical behaviour stems from my understanding of 'good and evil' which i mentioned before -- in other words, I understand what structures and destructures society. Because of that, I won't murder anyone because I know it terrorizes families and turns good people into bad or miserable people. That continues on to other tragedies, and whether or not I believe in eternal consequences, I do believe there are very real consequences to myself, to my family, to my children, and my childrens children.

3. I don't believe in self-sacrifice to the point of self-destruction. However, because of what I said above I do believe that there are things that are better for me to do (or not to do) that might be self-sacrificing. I might really be upset with someone, but I know that hurting them would only make me feel better for the wrong reasons, and then it would make me more likely to abuse someone in the future; someone like a wife, or a child who I would care about.
I wouldn't steal from someone because I know this world is already falling apart at the seams because of thieves -- maybe not people that steal a fifty out of the till at work; but businessmen that buy and sell companies just to make themself money (even though they ruin the company and the jobs of all the employees), or governments that steal the people's money, or corporations like exxon that turn off the lights for all of california just to strong arm them into paying more for energy. These things terrorize every one of us.

I know that I could get away with a lot more than I do, but I also know that I prefer to be a person I don't hate to be.

And I know that if this life is all we have, then we should treat it as such -- and protect it and preserve it at all costs.

If you believe in evolution instead of creationism, then unless you're a fool you'd realize only those that protect the world will be the ones fit enough to continue into the future because those that only ever do things for themselves might seem to do well for themselves, but they make the future harder and harder for us to survive in as we're seeing now with things like global warming.

Eventually the world will have to rise up and stop 'evil' because otherwise it will destroy the world. This isn't a world of one person...it's a world of billions. So either we all share, or we all slit each others throats until no one is left.

Answer 2

Well, two things. The threat of immediate consequences but also, some internal 'moral guide'. I think society plays a role but also, different people have different versions of what is tempting, right or wrong.
IE-Ted Bundy was raised Christian. Was told by society that killing was wrong but he still had the overwhelming desire to. I am purely atheist and was raised in a Christian household, too. It was lax and I don't remember anyone ever sitting me down to explain murder is a bad thing but I have absolutely no desire to kill anyone. In fact, I'll die happy if I never see a dead body. And, much to my conservative father's chagrine, I'm naturally a 'bleeding heart' liberal. When I was around four or five, he took me to see 'The Fox and The Hound' and said I cried for hours afterwards. (He never did take me to see Bambi)
Edit: I had another thought-I don't think any animal groups that live in herds or societies of some type, ever kill each other. I guess it's a form of survival or instinct.

Answer 3

If you didn't believe in God, or if it was proven tomorrow that there was no God, would YOU go and start killing people? Would you treat people badly? Would you be cruel?

I would certainly hope the answer would be no. If it is no, (like it should be) then just think about why you wouldn't. The reasons are the same for us.

If the answer is yes, then I'm sorry, but you would need psychiatric help. lol.

We all have the ability to empathize with our fellow human beings. It's not difficult to know that if we wouldn't want someone to do something to US, then we shouldn't do that thing to someone else. The threat of punishment shouldn't be the only thing keeping you from doing horrible things. Give your own conscience some credit. It's smarter than you think.

Answer 4

It's very simple - I care about people.

More crime, hate, and murder are committed under the veil of religion than have ever been done by non-religious people. You believe differently than I do, so my "god" commands that I kill you. How kind and loving is that?

My thoughts about the laws are that they did not come from religion. They evolved because they are good laws for societies to succeed. Societies will be more productive if people are not killing each other and stealing from each other. Societies are also likely to function better if married couples are not cheating on each other. The religious laws simply built on these guiding principles and added in their own twist about what to believe about their god. Now folks go around saying our laws are built on the foundation of religious laws. No they are not!

Answer 5

"What is your guiding force for ethical behaviour? If there are no eternal consequences, what keeps you from going Ted Bundy or Bonnie and Clyde? "


Man-made laws for one, and who would want to live in a society where you could literally do ANYTHING you want? And how good would that be in terms of mankind surviving?

I think it's sad to say that without god or religion everyone would be serial murderers or rapists. We have morals and ethics simply because it is whats necessary for us to survive.

Answer 6

Let's put it this way; Atheists and Christians may have the same guiding force as far as a moral code - ourselves - and what we know is right, moral, legal, etc. The main difference of course, to me, is as a Christian I have a guiding (loving) force behind me and I KNOW I have the promise of eternal life. But the reasons why I am good can be the same as why an atheist chooses to do so. I do not do it because I will be rewarded or punished; I do it out of love; for myself and my fellow man.

Answer 7

Sigh. There is a search function for this.

1. Being kind is good. It makes you feel good. Our species could not survive if we didn't follow the rules of society. There's more to that, but that's the gist.

2. So, without a religion/god, would you go around wreaking havoc and killing? That's just silly.

Answer 8

You don't need religious or secular laws to be moral and ethical. These characteristics are part of humanity and are necessary to some extent for the natural evolution of societies and cultures.

Answer 9

Your assertion that all laws have a religious origin is a false premise. You have no basis for this assumption.

I do not base my behavior on "eternal" consequences, I base it on immediate and observable consequences. Do you assume the threat of eternal damnation is the only mechanism preventing every Christian (for example) from killing and raping everything he sees? This assumption is also false.

Answer 10

Atheists have morals and ethics for the same reasons as theists. If you are only moral and ethical because your religion tells you to be, that is sad. And if the only thing that keeps you from committing crimes is fear of going to hell, then you have missed what I perceive to be the point of religion.