Rape? At what point can you consider mutual consent for intercourse to have been given?

Question

Let's say you are in a flat with some one you have just met in a club, you're both very drunk and have been flirting all night long and they have invited you up for 'coffee'. They excuse themselves to go and slip into 'something a little more comfortable' and return wearing something which makes you take a big gulp. You go in for the kill and kiss them passionately; they are kissing you back...... your hands wander and they murmur something while breathing heavily and appearing to enjoy. The evening goes its course and you wake in the morning to find the police there and your one night stand claiming they don't remember consenting but are sure they would have said 'no' at some point.

A husband is lying in bed feeling in the mood and tries it on with his wife, she refuses but he persists until she eventually sighs and snaps"oh go on if you must!", so he does.

A girlfriend is orally pleasing her fella, he decides he wants more than that and escalates things, after she says she.....

didn't want to have sex and that he raped her.

In the above three situations at what point would you consider, if any, mutual consent to have been attained? (In scenarios 2 and 3 we will consider, for arguments sake that both are parties are perfectly sober).

PLEASE NOTE I am fully aware of the legal aspects and answer here and am only interested in your opinion or what you would do in the given situation.

PLEASE REMEMBER IN SCENARIO 1 BOTH PARTIES SHOULD BE CONSIDERED AS BEING VERY DRUNK,

PLEASE REMEMBER IN SCENARIO 1 BOTH PARTIES SHOULD BE CONSIDERED AS BEING VERY DRUNK,

PLEASE REMEMBER IN SCENARIO 1 BOTH PARTIES SHOULD BE CONSIDERED AS BEING VERY DRUNK,

PLEASE REMEMBER IN SCENARIO 1 BOTH PARTIES SHOULD BE CONSIDERED AS BEING VERY DRUNK,

PLEASE REMEMBER IN SCENARIO 1 BOTH PARTIES SHOULD BE CONSIDERED AS BEING VERY DRUNK,

PLEASE REMEMBER IN SCENARIO 1 BOTH PARTIES SHOULD BE CONSIDERED AS BEING VERY DRUNK,

PLEASE REMEMBER IN SCENARIO 1 BOTH PARTIES SHOULD BE CONSIDERED AS BEING VERY DRUNK,

PLEASE REMEMBER IN SCENARIO 1 BOTH PARTIES SHOULD BE CONSIDERED AS BEING VERY DRUNK,

PLEASE REMEMBER IN SCENARIO 1 BOTH PARTIES SHOULD BE CONSIDERED AS BEING VERY DRUNK,

PLEASE REMEMBER IN SCENARIO 1 BOTH PARTIES SHOULD BE CONSIDERED AS BEING VERY DRUNK,

PLEASE REMEMBER IN SCENARIO 1 BOTH PARTIES SHOULD BE CONSIDERED AS BEING VERY DRUNK,

Answer 1

I think in most of the cases you have outlined the ambiguity of the situation would arise very quickly. I think your examples are slightly to the wrong side of the 'line' across the middle of the 'grey' area.
The situations the police are keen to persue are those where the victim feels much more manipulated and coerced through subtle(or not) pressure both mental and physical.
Every case is different and my concern is that we have blurred the lines where rape is concerned and almost accidently lessened its seriousness by lumping in everything.

I cannot begin to imagine what rape feels like (even allowing for dramatoisations seen on TV and articles in newspapers) but if the actual conviction rate of real offenders is going to rise then much more attention must be paid to quality evidence. I am concerned that the statistics are being presented in a one sided way, by that I mean really terrifying women into thinking there is no point in reporting rape.

The statistics talk in terms of failure, but failed to advise of the number of times a rapist was convicted of the murder of his victim instead of the rape only. The fact that many rapisits are serial offenders so one sucessful conviction may have removed a man who committed several rapes over a period of time. Nor does it account for the number of women who withdraw the allegation after a report has been entered but before it has been properly investigated.

My next opinion is perhaps even more controversial. We should not dilute rape by lowering the standard of conviction but should look rather to raise the use of 'serious sexual offense' to include a category where penetration has occurred but there is doubt about the level of intent/consent involved. I believe this would allow for increased sentences of those convicted of viscious and violent rape attacks, whilst allowing certain cases to plead a lesser charge of serious sexual assualt that would still carry a custodial sentence and put the individual on the sex offenders register and bring in the licenesed release procedures.

Answer 2

Scenario #1: This may be considered rape, however, because both parties were using alcohol, the investigators would have to sort out all the issues related to consent and, if the person had the capacity to consent. If charges were made in this case, they would like be dropped.

Scenario #2: "oh go on if you must!", equals consent. When deciding to proceed with charges, the District Attorney will have to answer the question, was there coercion or threat of bodily harm? If not, then charges would likely be dropped.

Scenario #3: If she said "no," then it is rape.

Hope this helps.

Answer 3

There was a case in America where two students got drunk at a dorm party, the girl allowed the guy to spend the night n her room to sleep it off. He was a perfect gentleman and did not try to escalate the process anymore just grateful for the place to stay, but in the middle of the night the guy is awakened by the girl she is coming on two him and invites him back to her bed, he agrees and the usual process occurs. The next morning she is screaming at him about what is he doing in her bed, she goes to the campus police and he is arrested for rape. and expelled from the school.

The Laws in the U.S. allow for the protection of the 'Victim' but not the accused during a rape, so his name was listed all over campus, the school newspaper did an article on him, all before this ever went to trail, and all on her word alone.

This was a couple of years ago I never did hear how this was resolved, but you tell me legally was mutual consent assumed/given?

Answer 4

When a woman or a man says no (yes, men can be raped - erection is a physiological response to stimulation not consent to sex). If they say no at the beginning or two seconds before the big "O" - a no is a no.

As to someone thinking they would have said no - that is too gray an area to make a judgment call, the wife consented, and if a girl consents to oral the guy takes it further then that is rape if she says no.

Answer 5

There are times when it must be difficult for a man to know, I think he must assume that unless a resounding 'yes' has been given verbally then he must not proceed. As a mother of two grown up boys it has always been a fear - I have always told them the answer is NO unless they hear a definite YES. Unfortunately some girls get so drunk these days themselves and appear to have no knowledge of what the hell they said, (don't mean to generalise, sorry), so if the girl is too drunk to say YES they must still assume it is NO.

Answer 6

I have always agreed with your reasoning. More and more males today have been trying to turn the tables on women by making up some ridiculous argument such as women rape men just as much as vice versa. I have never heard a more idiotic, unsupported, desperate attempt at clutching at straws than that. Anyway, one method they described was that if the man is drunk the woman is raping him. I completely disagree because it is your responsibility to drink sensibly, as you said. The same applies to women. If they are drunk it's their own fault that they can't think responsibly. Then they had the nerve to go on and say "sometimes women intentionally drug their drinks or get men drunk so they can manipulate him". Seriously, how goddamn paranoid can you get? As if any woman is going to do that, and why would they if they have lower sex drives than men.

Answer 7

In my opinion, none of these scenarios is anywhere near rape. any jury hearing any of these stories would throw it out, in fact the director of public prosecutions would throw it out before it even got to court. There needs to be more evidence of rape I think.

If two people are in a relationship and in the first case the female has given conscent hasn't she? And in the second she is giving oral sex with conscent? Well no case at all.

As far as waking up with the police in the room, I would think that idea is full of paranoia on your part.

Imagine...

She's gone down the cop shop in her neglige saying...

'There's a man in my bed that I invited in who has just raped me and then we decided to spend the night together'.

Answer 8

In the first example, while she may have hesitated once, all her other actions suggested invitation, and she never clearly said "no". But then again, she's a woman so her story will have more credibility with the police (typically).

In the second example, she says no, he stops, it's a done deal, no crime.

You can try something all you want provided you don't break any other laws, once you're told no you have to stop otherwise you are crossing into sexual harassment at the least.

Answer 9

I dont think any of the scenarious describe rape. Nothing sounds forced to me at all. While I agree that "no" means "no"... i dont beleive its fair to consent to and actually begin intercourse only then to say "no" b/c you WANT TO CRY RAPE afterwards to clear a conscious. I dont agree that you can be 1/2 raped ("oh yea i agreed and enjoyed for 3 minutes but he raped me the last 2 b/c i said stop"). So.. no, in my opnion none of the above describe rape. I am a woman and have changed my mind before; but I am also a woman and KNOW when to say NO before it goes to far.

Answer 10

Legally, the woman can say "Stop" even while you're actually having intercourse, and it's rape if you don't pull out.

Also, in most jurisdictions, if the woman can pursuade a jury that she was too drunk or stoned to understand what she was agreeing to, it's rape even if she was yelling "Yes, do it to me" all the way through.

So if you're not 100% certain whether she said "Don't! Stop!" or "Don't stop!"..... back off!

It's also rape if the girl is under the age of consent - again, even if she's the one asking for it - or if she's mentally incompetent. (retarded, or mentally ill)

Richard